Civilisation Attributes open discussion

[WhiteEyes]

Aside from that, was there discussion on the Turkic and Canadian design?

I think both civs have interesting design (especially the Turkic Silk Road and capital UHVs), but I find the Turkic UHV incredibly hard (based on 600 AD Regent/Normal) and the Canadian UHV simultaneously easily solved and incredibly luck based.

Turkic UHV
I have never gotten anywhere close to winning this UHV. I may just be terrible, but I find myself irrevocably crippled doing the territorial part of UHV1. Even with liberating all the random steppe cities to salvage my economy, I find myself so far behind on technology that conquering the Middle East just devolves into a "zerg rush with Oghuzes and pray you scrounged up enough of them through the UP", and behind enough on tech and infrastructure that the third city for UHV3 just isn't attainable before the Mongols demolish me.

Has anyone else beat this UHV on the intended difficulties? It really is so compelling to me design-wise but in terms of gameplay it has never once managed to click for me.

One fun thing I remember pulling off exactly once was using the random cities to make a box of neutral territory to basically stockpile barbarian Horse Archers and Oghuzes to recruit with the UP as soon as I decided to go conquering. Half the time though they just go west or east and die to Kiev/Byzantium/China.
.

There hasn't many discussion regarding Turks sadly. At least I made some points in this thread https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civilisation-attributes-open-discussion.660048/post-15944109

It took me 3 years to beat Turkic UHV, I've written a guide on how to win it. But the gameplay might not be the same as 2 years ago. I don't think anybody beat it at normal speed though.

 

[TsimTsigal]

Long time lurker here, first of all i'd like to thank Leoreth for working on the mod all these years creating something to truly stand the test of time.

I'd happily lurk even more, but there is one civ that recently made me question logic behind its UHV, namely - the Argentinians.

Their unique power - power of Junta - allows you to use Great Generals as a component for starting Golden Ages. Sure, this is quite reasonable for civ with Argentinian UHV, namely:

1. 2 Golden Ages by 1920
2. 50000 culture in Buenos Aires by 1960
3. 6 Golden Ages by 2000

First one is really easy, at least appears to be, especially with early wars with colonial powers (you start with 2 Ships'o'Line, which allow you to bully any ship that appears near South America, especially in 3000 BC starts where most civs save for British are often rather underdeveloped), altho you can save the General for later. Let's jump to UHV3, which is basically same thing... well, actually it isn't.

6 Golden Ages means that you'll need grand total of 25 (!!!) Great Persons, of which 5 can be Great Generals, and the last GA will forces you to get 5 different GPs + Great General (because aiming for 6 different GPs is pure masochism). Probably if you got lucky Peru respawn you can farm Great Generals, but it's still extremely unreliable, unless you wish to savescum to fish right composition of GPs. Sure, you can try to build the Eiffel Tower, which both helps UHV2 and UHV3... but British and American AIs seem to be hellbent on getting it, and while British can hopefully be weaker than usual, Americans are all but guaranteed to get Railroads before you. With specialist management and a bit of luck you can hope to bulb Machine Tools, Thermodynamics and Railroads (which requires 1 Merchant and 2 Engineers + another Engineer to finish the Eiffel - and throwing away 4 GPs can compromise otherwise easy UHV1), but i still never managed to beat the US in wonder race. Surprisingly the Statue of Liberty is often ignored.

What is worse, UHV2 exists. 50000 culture requires you to rush otherwise useless cultural buildings like Estate and fill Buenos Aires with Artists, which hurts your war effort (or you can play more passively, at cost of Great Generals), science (so less chance to snatch Railroads; to make things even worse, your UU is placed at Biology, and Revolutionism is placed at Journalism - and you really want tasty GG spawn bonus), and likely will eat at least one Great Artist to build Museum. While goal itself isn't that hard if you really go for it, it's so harming overall gameplay that you pretty much ensure failing UHV3.

Speaking about UU and UB - they both are pretty good and fitting for gameplay (lots of pastures + mobile opportunistic warfare), but by the time you research Biology your UU will be useful only against Peru, and UB comes really really late even without considering the fact you'll likely be at 0% science until 1960 to meet conditions of UHV2. And oh, you can't spam scientists in every city, because Buenos is for artists only, and after 5th Scientist they become dead weigth and missed opportunities.

To sum it up, Argentina's UHV is similar to Chinese UHV - it requires you to excel at everything at once, but while Chinese have way less stressful gameplay, more time and doesn't force you to generate useless culture (in fact, all Chinese UHV conditions actually improve your country in process).

 

[Derdan]

I find Argentina's UHV to be one of the most satisfying in the game. Every time I played it, the Eiffel Tower was built by either France or Germany, which made it easy enough to conquer. If America builds it I can imagine it might not be possible... but taking the Eiffel Tower is necessary. I used a Great Artist for a Museum and a Great Engineer for a Manufactory in Buenos Aires. All others can be used for Golden Ages and maybe a spare Great Artist to culture bomb the capital if needed.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

PORTUGAL - FROL DA MAR

Quick intro if I may: The lil “kingdom that could” has always been my top pick in any game it features in but with DoC she’s been a veritable obsession. I can’t identify the reasons and they’re not material to our discussion here (hehe I’m not a sliver Lusitanian myself). Essentially I’m just building a case to argue from authority, or experience at least; I’ve easily logged Portugal runs in the hundreds. Pompous rant over.

*Generally* the Civ is in a good place both for historicity and gameplay. The UP truly captures the spirit of sailing off to grab a little piece of *every* part of world and fulfills the aspirational quality that makes any feature of a civ strong.

UUs - SOLID

The Carrack is almost perfect and therefore no surprise it is and always will be Portugals UU in a Civ game. I’d make a case for adding city bombard ability to satisfy an historical itch but wouldnt push it
At the cost of balance. She could also maybe do with a rename since carrack refers to a very general class of ship. I’d like to do better than Náo but can’t quite justify something like the Civ6 Dutch naming a unit class after a single flagship, as sexy as Frol da Mar might sound. Náo works; I mean, at least it’s Portuguese.

Bandeirente was a brilliant addition that shored up civ shortcomings while keeping perfectly in step with the historical spirit. It’s also kinda necessary to a successful strategy in which the player has to fun decades-long deficits and jump-start settlements globewide. I hesitate to suggestion that it *might* be a teaspoon too strong because it’s been such a boon to my games. No change would be fine.

UHV 1 - “OPEN” BORDERS (with cannon fire)

Leoreth wouldn’t possible deserve any guff for keeping this one around from Rhye since it’s essentially worked and seems to fit the whole Trade Empire. I’m sure that without any objections being raised it was left untouched as our best guy turned attention to the other 5,550,000 items on the list.

Im gonna declare that it’s time ditch this old dinosaur because it’s not
only anathema to historical Portuguese conduct but plain uninteresting and not fun. In the past, it was only possible to fail due to the unstable state of the game. That’s since been remedied by Leoreth. I’d estimate in that last 75 games I’ve checked this box by 1450 at the latest.

Its also kinda laughably at odds with practice. “Open borders” has one imagining the free movement of goods overseen by intelligent businessmen and civil servants to the benefit of a merchant middle class - an centuries-early single market! We know it was the opposite: seaborne Crusaders with shiny new guns blasted their way from one end of the Indian Ocean to the other, occupied and rebuilt the ruins, and funneled the wealth of the eastern trade directly to the Crown. Among the Red Sea, Persian Gulf, and Straights of Malacca, borders were being closed.

The Problem: I can’t think of a suitable replacement. Conquest goals aren’t interesting either and would Likely take away the fun derived from the civs flexibility when it comes to settlement and
Flexibility. England already has to sink ships. Kongo trades slaves. The Moors pirate. Another Rhye legacy involving Map knowledge is also a snoozer. Too many appropriate “firsts” seem trivial to accomplish.

The closet thing I have to idea is borrowing one of Genoa’s goals from RFC Europe which is something like having the highest volume of Imports/Exports (trade volume) by XX. But, I also have no idea where the average game lands a player on this metric; for all I know it’s a necessary outcome of fulfilling UHV 2 and 3. Bring on them ideas please!

UHV 2 - CONSPICUOUS CONSUMPTION

Hehe fine, let the Dutch have their spices only. This one does the job. The quantity requirements just haven’t kept up with the addition of map resources over the years and versions. 18 would be a safe place to start but I’d push for 20. This might also be rendered moot by new map.

UHV 3 - JUST LIKE, SETTLE DUDE

Until a more creative proposal comes along, and like #2, increase quantity required and either lengthen or
Shorten deadline. Perhaps change “by” to “in”. Right now it’s essentially “England Lite”.

Thanks against to everything you do, L.

 

[Dracosolon]

I think the Canadian UB could afford to be a bit buffed. +2 is nice but such a late civ could do with a stronger effect (especially since you need Horses before it even works). Ideas:

-Reduced cost, or removal of Jail requirement (Canada has very little time to build anything),
-Maintenance bonus (it needs to settle mediocre cities to cover its territory so that reduces the sting of it).

I'm also not sure how the Immigrants mechanic works now.

 

[Derdan]

It should get the double construction speed bonus from Democracy OR Monarchy, or maybe just the former. Canada starts with Democracy anyway.

 

[Dracosolon]

Aw, but I found Republic to be pretty good for Canada. You can just build Mines, Lumbermills and Central Planning Watermills (none of them are affected by the food penalty) and use Republic Specialists to make even your crappy tundra cities semi-useful and pop out Great People as fast as Democracy.

 

[Logoncal]

Byzantium's UP became completely worthless, after the tech trade patch. Whats the point of buying tech if noone offers it.

We could change to something less underwhelming. Maybe a religious bonus

 

[Lycidas]

Aw, but I found Republic to be pretty good for Canada. You can just build Mines, Lumbermills and Central Planning Watermills (none of them are affected by the food penalty) and use Republic Specialists to make even your crappy tundra cities semi-useful and pop out Great People as fast as Democracy.

Maybe a 'Lumberjack' equivalent of a fast worker could be their UU given they have a limited opportunities for war and need to develop the land quickly.

I wonder if the UB could combine the benefits of a Jail on maintenance with a culture buff to recognise the First Nations/English/French traditions?

 

[Logoncal]

Should Brazil get Pracinhas as a Second UU? They get bonus related to either hill tiles or city tiles, a reference to Monte Casino.

 

[Dracosolon]

The UU for Brazil was debated for a long time IIRC, and Pracinhas came up repeatedly. Problem is there's nothing that special about them and Brazil has a relatively peaceful UHV game so a civilian unit was better. Ideally something to do with a war with Argentina would be best.

 

[Leoreth]

I would like to pick up discussion about some UPs. As you know I have made changes to many civilizations on the map branch, but there are some civilizations whose UP I wanted to change but skipped for the time being because I wasn't sure what a better UP would be or what it should look like directly.

These UPs are:

• Byzantium: it's widely agreed that its current bribery power is complicated to use, and not very useful
• Aztecs: capturing slaves is okay, but the effect of sacrificing them is not very useful
• Thailand: I would like to remove it as part of a general effort to get rid of "excess happiness" based effects
• Mexico: similar to the replaced Khmer UP, it is not very useful or interesting

Let's discuss replacement ideas in more detail.

Byzantium

I reviewed the discussion here and the best approaches I have seen are connected to 1) giving benefits to its capital and 2) basing the benefit on either gold in treasury or culture in the capital. I think these ideas make a lot of sense historically and gameplay wise because the historical reputation of Byzantium is connected both to Constantinople and its wealth/culture. From a gameplay point of view it would be good because the goals already encourage you to stockpile gold and culture so it would feel less like a waste.

But what should the effect be? I have no clear idea, which is why I did not put any concrete ability into the game. Another concern is stackability: if the effect is "per X gold" then it would theoretically infinitely stackable. I don't like to put something like "up to a maximum of +Y" into the UP description.

It is probably not desirable to let the UP feed back into an economic effect (extra gold/commerce/trade/science) because we do not want Byzantium to become the tech leader. Production in capital? Happiness in capital? Experience in capital?

Aztecs

Currently sacrificing a slave temporarily grants +1 happiness and force triggers WLTKD, both of which are quite weak. The game does not have a framework right now to grant any more than +1 temporary happiness (it stacks only in the sense of increasing the duration).

What other effect could slaves have? For thematic reasons, I would like to keep the "sacrifice" button. Maybe +x experience for the next unit?

Thailand

I want to open up ideas here generally. The "Father Governs Children" title comes from Civ5 (whose effect cannot be replicated into Civ4) but we do not need to use it. Or we can associate it with something else, although I blank on any good idea currently.

Maybe something related to foreign embassies? Never loses contact after signing open borders? Not very powerful but not useless for a rather isolated civ.

Mexico

I think we should similarly go into a completely different direction - the valley of Mexico has enough food and we do not need to buff the more arid northern parts of the country.

I have been thinking about something related to revolutions or resisting foreign invasions? One idea I have here is: Can draft +x additional units during anarchy if at war with a more powerful civilization.

Alternatively the only other thing I could think of is the Cientifico movement during the Porfiriato: something like "Can convert production to science at a rate of 100%"


I don't want to lead the conversation here in any way, just provide a few starting points. If you have completely different ideas, please go ahead. But for now keep it limited to UPs of these civilizations.

 

[Temüjin VIII]

Aztecs

• Sacrificing slaves starts mini-Golden Ages (~2-3 turns)
  • Can increase in costs (1 slave, then 2, then 3) or have it fixed (always 2 slaves)
  • Can implement hard cooldown (every 5-10 turns scaled with game speed)
  • Retain the temporary happiness bonus to make it a bit stronger if desired
  • Plays into their belief that sacrificing slaves gives them blessings from the gods (or more like appeasing them)

Thailand

• +1 per provided by buildings and military units stationed in city
  • Similar to the new Indian UP, except it's commerce instead of health
  • "Military units stationed in city" incentivizes Thailand to stay in Monarchy
  • Goes along with the "Father Governs Children" motto: Investing on buildings and stationing defending troops are a way of "ruling the kingdom properly"

Mexico

• Religious buildings provide +1 (+2 for cathedrals); WLTKD adds +25% food to stock per turn
  • Mexicans are very religious and their form of Catholicism is highly syncretized (they celebrate a lot of festivals that honor both Catholic and folk traditions)
  • Synergizes with UHV3 (make Ciudad de Mexico the most populous city) and somewhat with UHV1 (construct 3 Cathedrals of state religion)
• Alternate effect: +1 per Priest in all cities
  • Basically a free post-Renaissance Wat Preah Pisnulok given to a Catholic civ as a UP

 

[Temüjin VIII]

Byzantium

• +10% and +10% in capital for every stability level above Unstable
  • Guaranteed +10% at Shaky to +40% at Very Solid
  • Rewards Byzantium for keeping its empire stable
  • Could be weak since the effect only applies to the capital for such a big empire

 

[Dracosolon]

For the Aztecs:
- I remember various users here pointing out that the Templo Mayor was dedicated to Tlaloc, god of rain, and Huitzilopochtli, god of war. Maybe a food effect like additional growth (like Granaries) and a military effect (units production, since experience is already covered by the UB)? Synergizes with the population UHV (to help Tenochtitlan reach its limits) and the native raids (where you need flexibility).

For Byzantium:
-I agree it would be hard to balance it if it's based on stored gold. How about "Extra production in capital from the gold, culture and espionage sliders"? All three fit thematically, it conflicts with research, and it synergizes with the current UHV without being too exploitable.

 

[Steb]

Mexico

• Religious buildings provide +1 (+2 for cathedrals); WLTKD adds +25% food to stock per turn
  • Mexicans are very religious and their form of Catholicism is highly syncretized (they celebrate a lot of festivals that honor both Catholic and folk traditions)
  • Synergizes with UHV3 (make Ciudad de Mexico the most populous city) and somewhat with UHV1 (construct 3 Cathedrals of state religion)
• Alternate effect: +1 per Priest in all cities
  • Basically a free post-Renaissance Wat Preah Pisnulok given to a Catholic civ as a UP

One problem with this is that the Mexican state has been hardline secular for much of the 20th century. Priests couldn't vote until 1992 and still can't run for office! So while it's true that Mexicans are in practice quite religious, I don't think a UP about religion is a good idea. Even the 3 cathedrals UHV goal seems a bit out of place to me. Religion in Mexico is a thing that the state deals with, but not one that the state sponsors.

Something about revolutions would fit, although that's already the theme for several other Latin American civs.

Aztecs

• Sacrificing slaves starts mini-Golden Ages (~2-3 turns)
  • Can increase in costs (1 slave, then 2, then 3) or have it fixed (always 2 slaves)
  • Can implement hard cooldown (every 5-10 turns scaled with game speed)
  • Retain the temporary happiness bonus to make it a bit stronger if desired
  • Plays into their belief that sacrificing slaves gives them blessings from the gods (or more like appeasing them)

For the Aztecs:
- I remember various users here pointing out that the Templo Mayor was dedicated to Tlaloc, god of rain, and Huitzilopochtli, god of war. Maybe a food effect like additional growth (like Granaries) and a military effect (units production, since experience is already covered by the UB)? Synergizes with the population UHV (to allow to push the capital past its limits) and the native raids (where you need flexibility).

Add two actions, Sacrifice to Tlaloc (for food) and Sacrifice to Huitzilopochtli (for exp/unit production)? That would be super thematic and interactive.

Mini golden ages, or full-blown golden ages if you save up several slaves, seems like it would be powerful but would certainly be fun. A compromise could be "sacrifice X slaves to replace a great person for a golden age". The downsides of these ideas is that you wouldn't be able to perform a lot of small sacrifices.

Byzantium

I reviewed the discussion here and the best approaches I have seen are connected to 1) giving benefits to its capital and 2) basing the benefit on either gold in treasury or culture in the capital. I think these ideas make a lot of sense historically and gameplay wise because the historical reputation of Byzantium is connected both to Constantinople and its wealth/culture. From a gameplay point of view it would be good because the goals already encourage you to stockpile gold and culture so it would feel less like a waste.

But what should the effect be? I have no clear idea, which is why I did not put any concrete ability into the game. Another concern is stackability: if the effect is "per X gold" then it would theoretically infinitely stackable. I don't like to put something like "up to a maximum of +Y" into the UP description.

It is probably not desirable to let the UP feed back into an economic effect (extra gold/commerce/trade/science) because we do not want Byzantium to become the tech leader. Production in capital? Happiness in capital? Experience in capital?

Though not super inspired, giving extra gold (or maybe GPP points or whatever) in the capital based on religious buildings, effectively making Constantinople a second Orthodox shrine, would probably work well both thematically and gameplay-wise.

Or how about something like "Shrine income redirected to the capital" (where it's presumably easier to capitalize on it), which would 1) encourage Byzantium to control Jerusalem and Rome and 2) represent the centralization of religious and other authority in Constantinople. If that's weak we can also thrown in a +25% gold from shrines, or extra culture. This could be called "The Power of the First Among Equals" or "The Power of Ecumenical Patriarchy"

 

[Publicola]

Byzantium

Would it be possible to have an effect like 'Better relations from culture in capital', where you get a +1/+2/+4/+6 modifier (or similar) from each 'level' of culture accumulated in the Byzantine capital? That might help represent Byzantine diplomacy and its ability to maintain peace with its neighbors except in cases where the attack comes from a new civ's spawn (Arabs, Seljuk Turks, Ottomans). OTOH, I also quite like the 'shrine income redirected to capital' idea, where Constantinople becomes wealthier when the Byzantines control Rome and Jerusalem or whatever holy city is found in game.

Thailand

I want to open up ideas here generally. The "Father Governs Children" title comes from Civ5 (whose effect cannot be replicated into Civ4) but we do not need to use it. Or we can associate it with something else, although I blank on any good idea currently.

In Civ5, the UP gives Food and Culture from friendly city-states. Could we do something similar with food and/or culture from foreign trade routes?

 

[TsimTsigal]

How about "The Power of Bureaucracy: Espionage points in Byzantine capital are added to city's Commerce"? It stimulates espionage, spamming Statemen (which reflects Byzantine bureaucracy, heh) and growing the capital at once.

 

[1SDANi]

Considering that the Aztecs sacrificed to the gods of war and food as stated above, functioning to ease unrest in times of panic, perhaps sacrifices could halve or even remove all unhappiness from population in the city for one turn. I am aware this is not currently implemented in the XML, however I'd be glad to make a PR for it if it's something you'd be open to considering

I love the idea of a civ being able to fully convert production into commerce, I find that I very rarely actually ever use commerce production.

Perhaps we could combine Byzantium's commerce theming with their use of treaties and diplomacy, something like "+10% production in the capital for each Open Borders agreement with a Civilization with less Gold". This would inherently limit it according to the number of players, encourages saving up Gold, and can be seen as an abstraction of Byzantine Diplomacy, their inclusion of mercenaries from around the world in their armies, and Byzantine Architecture's foreign influences.

Also, similar to the Aztec statement, I'd be glad to program a "yield if city is on river" XML field for buildings

 

[Leoreth]

The issue is not my incapability to implement a new XML tag.