_Hannibal_
Chieftain
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Do you think Civ 6 needs a new common unit between musketman and infantry? How to affect this in gameplay? UU from France and England need a buff obviously.
Civilization 6 need this?
- Thread starter _Hannibal_
- Start date
Sostratus
Deity
A quick look at units organized by era shows that Firaxis left an era between unit upgrades almost everywhere:
http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Units_(Civ6)
Melee and ranged units kind of "leapfrog" each other with their upgrades.
Light and heavy cavalry also leapfrog each other.
This is a bit awkward and I imagine they are planning to fill it in with expansions.
While the corps and army system allows numbers to compete with more advanced tech, (great job firaxis!) I think it creates too large of powerspikes in the mid game. Some kind of industrial infantry, like the classic Rifleman (for goodness sake, we have the rifling tech, come on) to slide between there would be great. That way, french and english UUs fit better. Remember that they are tagged in the civics tree as industrial units- an era before infantry. So Victoria and Catherine get to run around for an era with a 65 strength unit (75 with their bonuses!) vs the 55 strength musketmen of lesser empires- doesn't feel too fair in abstract! Having a rifleman in the 62ish combat region (between MM and Inf) would help Garde Imperiale and redcoats shine with their special combat bonuses, while giving others a fair chance to oppose them.
The spacing of the tech trees messes with this, since it's not hard to just beeline infantry; redcoats and GI only upgrade to Mech Inf, making them lose to infantry.
When they add more units, they also need to make sure they address how we can progress through the tree to unlock these units to avoid Civ5's pikemen vs swordsmen situation (it was invariantly much better to rush civil service, getting pikes, who could beat swords, which required a strategic resource and a detour down to iron working; Civil Service's location on the tree made swords obsolete.)
http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Units_(Civ6)
Melee and ranged units kind of "leapfrog" each other with their upgrades.
Light and heavy cavalry also leapfrog each other.
This is a bit awkward and I imagine they are planning to fill it in with expansions.
While the corps and army system allows numbers to compete with more advanced tech, (great job firaxis!) I think it creates too large of powerspikes in the mid game. Some kind of industrial infantry, like the classic Rifleman (for goodness sake, we have the rifling tech, come on) to slide between there would be great. That way, french and english UUs fit better. Remember that they are tagged in the civics tree as industrial units- an era before infantry. So Victoria and Catherine get to run around for an era with a 65 strength unit (75 with their bonuses!) vs the 55 strength musketmen of lesser empires- doesn't feel too fair in abstract! Having a rifleman in the 62ish combat region (between MM and Inf) would help Garde Imperiale and redcoats shine with their special combat bonuses, while giving others a fair chance to oppose them.
The spacing of the tech trees messes with this, since it's not hard to just beeline infantry; redcoats and GI only upgrade to Mech Inf, making them lose to infantry.
When they add more units, they also need to make sure they address how we can progress through the tree to unlock these units to avoid Civ5's pikemen vs swordsmen situation (it was invariantly much better to rush civil service, getting pikes, who could beat swords, which required a strategic resource and a detour down to iron working; Civil Service's location on the tree made swords obsolete.)
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
What Civ HAS needed for about 20 plus years is to get the military history right in the post-Classical period. Cv VI is only the worst example of a long line of mistakes/omissions.
First, some definitions/assumptions:
1. Musketman, based on its timing in the game and the graphical representation of the unit, represents the Renaissance-Era matchlock-armed 'shot'.
2. The 'Infantry' unit represents the 'common' infantry of the WWII period - actually, about 1935 to 1965, after which just about all such troops were completely armed with automatic weapons ("assault rifles").
First, then, the Musketman is NOT a Melee Unit. The matchlock musket was a 7 - 9 kilogram clumsy club with no bayonet wielded by a man who sometimes had a cheap 'hanger' or short sword, but no training whatsoever on how to use it (a few exceptions: French Aristocratic 'Musketiers' had better swords and knew how to use them - but they were also mounted troops, regardless of what the movies show you, and so were closer to dragoons than Musketmen).
So, the Melee Unit of the Renaissance is the Pikeman, and the Musketman is a Ranged Support Unit. Stack it with a pikeman, and you represent the 'standard' renaissance 'pike and shot' formation: pikes to keep the cavalry off while the muskets blaze away. The smoothbore, slow-firing matchlock would have a range of 1, BUT the matchlock is actually cheaper and easier to produce than the steel-spring Crossbow, so the cost of your 'ranged' unit should actually go down (for a change!)
The new Melee Unit is the Fusilier, carrying the Fusil, or flintlock smoothbore musket. This are the troops and the weapon that fought all the European wars of the 18th century and conquered India: the War of the Spanish Succession, Seven Years' War, American Revolution, and Napoleonic Wars - that's a lot of fairly important military history to get Dead Wrong, but Civ has managed it consistently.
What makes the Fusilier so different is that it Fuses two lines of development: the Fusil came into service simultaneously with the socket bayonet, so for the first time you have a melee unit that also has a bonus against cavalry AND a ranged capability. To represent this, they should get both a bonus against cavalry and the Ranged Attack Before Melee of the Zulu Impi in Civ V.
The Grenadier of the 17th-18th century has also been consistently mis-identified in Civ. The grenades were to clear trenches and battlements before/during an assault on a fortress: Grenadiers, then, are a slightly-pre-Fusilier Siege Weapon if you must have them, but by the beginning of the 18th century they were simply Elite Infantry, which is what the Grenadiers a' Pied of the Garden Imperiale, the French UU of Civ VI are.
IF we must have another infantry unit in the same time frame, it would be the Voltigeurs/Jagers/Light Infantry which would come along, historically, about 50 - 60 years after the Fusilier. This would be another Ranged Attack Before Melee melee unit, their specialty is rapid movement over rough ground, through forests, marsh or jungle. Unfortunately, they don't get any anti-cavalry bonus - formations are too loose, but they do get a Bonus when fighting in forest, jungle, or on hills. They would also generate Great Generals faster, because a huge percentage of General Officers in all the European armies came out of the 'light troops' - even at the battalion level, the light troops required much more initiative and independent decision-making than the 'line' troops did, so their officers were much more suited for high command, it seems.
To simply replace all the Fusiliers wth Jagers or their like is not practical, because the Light Troops also require more maintenance (Training Time, ammunition for training, higher level and therefore less common Leadership, etc).
Both Musketmen and Pikemen Upgrade to Fusliers. Scouts can be Upgraded to Jagers/Voltigeurs.
The other type between 1815 and 1935 is the breechloading black-powder-armed rifleman, a mainstay of previous Civs but only represented by a 'scout' unit in Civ VI.
This is the Industrial Era infantry. Like the Fusilier, it combines Anti-Cav and Melee capability, should have a limited Ranged capability in a Ranged Attack Before Melee as with the previous unit. BOTH the Fusilier and the Light Infantry can Upgrade to this unit.
So, here's what we could and up with:
Renaissance Era: (in Rough Order of Appearance)
Pikeman - anti-cavalry
Musketman - Support Ranged (range = 1 tile)
Fusilier - Melee AND Anti-Cavalry, with Ranged Attack Before Melee (RABM) capability
Light Infantry - rough terrain-moving Melee with RABM capability
Industrial Era:
Ranger - Recon Unit
Rifleman - Melee with Anti-Cavalry Bonus and RABM capability
Other units should also be considerably revamped, along with some of the Promotions, but that's for another discussion...
First, some definitions/assumptions:
1. Musketman, based on its timing in the game and the graphical representation of the unit, represents the Renaissance-Era matchlock-armed 'shot'.
2. The 'Infantry' unit represents the 'common' infantry of the WWII period - actually, about 1935 to 1965, after which just about all such troops were completely armed with automatic weapons ("assault rifles").
First, then, the Musketman is NOT a Melee Unit. The matchlock musket was a 7 - 9 kilogram clumsy club with no bayonet wielded by a man who sometimes had a cheap 'hanger' or short sword, but no training whatsoever on how to use it (a few exceptions: French Aristocratic 'Musketiers' had better swords and knew how to use them - but they were also mounted troops, regardless of what the movies show you, and so were closer to dragoons than Musketmen).
So, the Melee Unit of the Renaissance is the Pikeman, and the Musketman is a Ranged Support Unit. Stack it with a pikeman, and you represent the 'standard' renaissance 'pike and shot' formation: pikes to keep the cavalry off while the muskets blaze away. The smoothbore, slow-firing matchlock would have a range of 1, BUT the matchlock is actually cheaper and easier to produce than the steel-spring Crossbow, so the cost of your 'ranged' unit should actually go down (for a change!)
The new Melee Unit is the Fusilier, carrying the Fusil, or flintlock smoothbore musket. This are the troops and the weapon that fought all the European wars of the 18th century and conquered India: the War of the Spanish Succession, Seven Years' War, American Revolution, and Napoleonic Wars - that's a lot of fairly important military history to get Dead Wrong, but Civ has managed it consistently.
What makes the Fusilier so different is that it Fuses two lines of development: the Fusil came into service simultaneously with the socket bayonet, so for the first time you have a melee unit that also has a bonus against cavalry AND a ranged capability. To represent this, they should get both a bonus against cavalry and the Ranged Attack Before Melee of the Zulu Impi in Civ V.
The Grenadier of the 17th-18th century has also been consistently mis-identified in Civ. The grenades were to clear trenches and battlements before/during an assault on a fortress: Grenadiers, then, are a slightly-pre-Fusilier Siege Weapon if you must have them, but by the beginning of the 18th century they were simply Elite Infantry, which is what the Grenadiers a' Pied of the Garden Imperiale, the French UU of Civ VI are.
IF we must have another infantry unit in the same time frame, it would be the Voltigeurs/Jagers/Light Infantry which would come along, historically, about 50 - 60 years after the Fusilier. This would be another Ranged Attack Before Melee melee unit, their specialty is rapid movement over rough ground, through forests, marsh or jungle. Unfortunately, they don't get any anti-cavalry bonus - formations are too loose, but they do get a Bonus when fighting in forest, jungle, or on hills. They would also generate Great Generals faster, because a huge percentage of General Officers in all the European armies came out of the 'light troops' - even at the battalion level, the light troops required much more initiative and independent decision-making than the 'line' troops did, so their officers were much more suited for high command, it seems.
To simply replace all the Fusiliers wth Jagers or their like is not practical, because the Light Troops also require more maintenance (Training Time, ammunition for training, higher level and therefore less common Leadership, etc).
Both Musketmen and Pikemen Upgrade to Fusliers. Scouts can be Upgraded to Jagers/Voltigeurs.
The other type between 1815 and 1935 is the breechloading black-powder-armed rifleman, a mainstay of previous Civs but only represented by a 'scout' unit in Civ VI.
This is the Industrial Era infantry. Like the Fusilier, it combines Anti-Cav and Melee capability, should have a limited Ranged capability in a Ranged Attack Before Melee as with the previous unit. BOTH the Fusilier and the Light Infantry can Upgrade to this unit.
So, here's what we could and up with:
Renaissance Era: (in Rough Order of Appearance)
Pikeman - anti-cavalry
Musketman - Support Ranged (range = 1 tile)
Fusilier - Melee AND Anti-Cavalry, with Ranged Attack Before Melee (RABM) capability
Light Infantry - rough terrain-moving Melee with RABM capability
Industrial Era:
Ranger - Recon Unit
Rifleman - Melee with Anti-Cavalry Bonus and RABM capability
Other units should also be considerably revamped, along with some of the Promotions, but that's for another discussion...
You're undoubtedly correct @Boris Gudenuf , but I fear your drastic reworking doesn't fit within Civ VI's unit structure - I have no desire to see a return to messy unit upgrade paths. Given how Promotions work, going from ranged to melee doesn't work, and support units crucially have no attack function.
Civ VI's (and V's) tactical combat requires a good degree of abstraction of scale regarding unit formations, so the representation of pike+shot should be achieved by having those units next to each other on the map, just as spears+archers would be in earlier eras. However this introduces the problem of needing to make Musketmen and their successors a ranged unit, leaving the melee class obsolete after the Renaissance. A ranged first strike (a la Civ V's Impi) is a decent halfway house, but I think you'd have to compromise on the historical accuracy and give it to the Musketman to have any sort of consistency in terms of gameplay mechanics.
In answer to the OP, yes there is a need for such a unit, but currently the tech tree won't accommodate it. With some beelining it's possible to have Infantry in the field relatively soon after deploying your muskets. I'd love to see a Fusilier unit in between, but I think you'd need to add a whole Enlightenment Era worth of techs and civics in between to make use of it.
As for other huge gaps: Horseman to Cavalry is a huge leap in terms of combat strength that means you have underpowered classical light cavalry units hanging around for quite a long time while the heavier Knights take their role. Also Quadriremes to Frigates is a jump - I'd like to see the Galeass return. And perhaps most egregiously, flimsy Ancient Galleys to Renaissance Caravels. A medieval melee naval unit is sorely missing.
Civ VI's (and V's) tactical combat requires a good degree of abstraction of scale regarding unit formations, so the representation of pike+shot should be achieved by having those units next to each other on the map, just as spears+archers would be in earlier eras. However this introduces the problem of needing to make Musketmen and their successors a ranged unit, leaving the melee class obsolete after the Renaissance. A ranged first strike (a la Civ V's Impi) is a decent halfway house, but I think you'd have to compromise on the historical accuracy and give it to the Musketman to have any sort of consistency in terms of gameplay mechanics.
In answer to the OP, yes there is a need for such a unit, but currently the tech tree won't accommodate it. With some beelining it's possible to have Infantry in the field relatively soon after deploying your muskets. I'd love to see a Fusilier unit in between, but I think you'd need to add a whole Enlightenment Era worth of techs and civics in between to make use of it.
As for other huge gaps: Horseman to Cavalry is a huge leap in terms of combat strength that means you have underpowered classical light cavalry units hanging around for quite a long time while the heavier Knights take their role. Also Quadriremes to Frigates is a jump - I'd like to see the Galeass return. And perhaps most egregiously, flimsy Ancient Galleys to Renaissance Caravels. A medieval melee naval unit is sorely missing.
Manifold
ModderProtectionAdvocate
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2007
- Messages
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The muskets were also used as clubs. The distance between the lines was very short normally they look each other into ones eyes.
And we do not have to forget the system: Scissors stone paper
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
I'm sorry, but right now the Upgrade Paths in Civ VI are not messy, they are atrocious and an insult to intelligence:
Pikeman to AT Crew?
Crossbowman to Field Cannon?
Musketman to Infantry?
In every case they skip several hundred years of military history, change the real purpose of the unit in favor of a mistaken game designer's vision of the unit purpose, and require, in the case of the Musketman to Infantry, a unit with a totally artificial Resource limitation to one with No Resource requirements at all, which would come as a considerable surprise to the planners in the historical Soviet, German, British, US, or Japanese General Staffs in WWII!
The current units and Upgrade Paths and Promotions in Civ VI are ridiculous, inane, insulting, incomprehensible, incontinent, and any other disparaging adjective available. They are one of several reasons I stopped playing Civ VI in disgust 8 months ago.
Then change the Tech Tree completely, since between the curtailed Tree and the Eurekas it is completely inadequate for the game. On average I found myself completing the Tech Tree with 100 - 150 turns left in the game, so there's plenty of room for another Era - or Two.
Yes indeed, the "clubbed musket" was the Melee Weapon of the matchlock musketman - but in every case that I've read (English Civil War, 30 Year's War) they were only used against other musketmen. Against troops armed with real melee capability: pikemen or cuirassiers - the musketmen hid behind their own pikemen or died quickly and messily.
And Scissors-Paper-Stone applies tactically in almost all ages but with different weapons:
In Classical/Ancient Era:
Cavalry could not charge Spearmen/Hoplites
Spearmen/Hoplites could not catch archers/slingers shooting at them
Archers/Slingers could not outrun Cavalry
In Renaissance/Enlightenment Era:
Cavalry could not charge Pikemen
Musketmen could shoot down Pikemen
Cavalry could ride down Musketmen
In (early) Industrial Era:
Fusiliers could form square and were (relatively) impervious to Cavalry
Cannon could (literally) blow squares of Fusiliers to pieces
Cavalry could charge and overrun Cannon (unless you were the Light Brigade trying to charge All The Cannon In The World with 600 men!)
I agree that it's a mess in terms of historical gaps and misapplied unit roles, but Civ VI is a game at the end of the day, and well-designed games need to have consistent and sensible mechanics. It is necessary to compromise some accuracy in order to have some level of consistency throughout the ages, which of course the real history of warfare was not concerned with.
Working on the rock-paper-scissors analogy, we can develop a slightly more accurate system along your arguments.
Forgetting for a moment the confusing categories of "melee", "ranged", and going back to basics:-
We have the Rock units - the dependable core of your army. They only attack by engaging units directly in combat, but are tough and hard to kill...
...we have the Paper units - they don't put up much of a fight in close quarters, but have a powerful skirmish attack they can use without sustaining damage themselves...
...and we have the Scissors units - they hit hard on the offensive against the flimsy Paper, but find it difficult to break the defences of the Rock.
Now applying these to some eras, we could have (new additions obvious, but with *):
Ancient:
Rock: Warrior
Paper: Slinger
Scissors: Chariot
Classical:
Rock: Spearman
Paper: Archer
Scissors: Horseman
Medieval:
Rock: Pikeman
Paper: Crossbowman
Scissors: Knight
Renaissance:
Rock: Pikeman (again)
Paper: Musketman
Scissors: Cuirassier*
Enlightenment:
Rock: Fusilier*
Paper: Field Cannon
Scissors: Cavalry
Industrial
Rock: Rifleman*
Paper: Gatling Gun*
Scissors: Cavalry (again)
Modern/Atomic
Rock: Infantry
Paper: Machine Gun
Scissors: Tank
Information
Rock: Mechanised Infantry
Paper: Machine Gun (again)
Scissors: Modern Armour
Working within Civ VI's unit structure, Rocks work better as melee units, Paper as ranged units with a range of 2, and Scissors as fast moving Cavalry. Muskets can therefore be defended by pikes.
This isn't perfect (some units still straddle eras), and doesn't completely represent Civ VI's combat (we have also Siege units and wildcards that don't fit neatly within the trinity like Light Cavalry+Helicopters, and Anti-Tank). But I think it's an improvement over what we currently have.
Working on the rock-paper-scissors analogy, we can develop a slightly more accurate system along your arguments.
Forgetting for a moment the confusing categories of "melee", "ranged", and going back to basics:-
We have the Rock units - the dependable core of your army. They only attack by engaging units directly in combat, but are tough and hard to kill...
...we have the Paper units - they don't put up much of a fight in close quarters, but have a powerful skirmish attack they can use without sustaining damage themselves...
...and we have the Scissors units - they hit hard on the offensive against the flimsy Paper, but find it difficult to break the defences of the Rock.
Now applying these to some eras, we could have (new additions obvious, but with *):
Ancient:
Rock: Warrior
Paper: Slinger
Scissors: Chariot
Classical:
Rock: Spearman
Paper: Archer
Scissors: Horseman
Medieval:
Rock: Pikeman
Paper: Crossbowman
Scissors: Knight
Renaissance:
Rock: Pikeman (again)
Paper: Musketman
Scissors: Cuirassier*
Enlightenment:
Rock: Fusilier*
Paper: Field Cannon
Scissors: Cavalry
Industrial
Rock: Rifleman*
Paper: Gatling Gun*
Scissors: Cavalry (again)
Modern/Atomic
Rock: Infantry
Paper: Machine Gun
Scissors: Tank
Information
Rock: Mechanised Infantry
Paper: Machine Gun (again)
Scissors: Modern Armour
Working within Civ VI's unit structure, Rocks work better as melee units, Paper as ranged units with a range of 2, and Scissors as fast moving Cavalry. Muskets can therefore be defended by pikes.
This isn't perfect (some units still straddle eras), and doesn't completely represent Civ VI's combat (we have also Siege units and wildcards that don't fit neatly within the trinity like Light Cavalry+Helicopters, and Anti-Tank). But I think it's an improvement over what we currently have.
Manifold
ModderProtectionAdvocate
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2007
- Messages
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In my opinion the gatling/machine gun is more a defensive weapon like the Pikeman and absolutely deadly for any Cavalry. Their age ended with the upcoming of the machine gun. So the actual path had to be reworked. I guess the replacement of the Field Cannon should be a modern artillery.
the game has also...
Immovable defensive
scouts / irregulars
siege / wide range artillery
We also need an elite path for another unit. It could start with
Battle Axeman -> Maceman -> Longswordman (Samurai) -> Grenadier (French Guard infantry) -> Sappeur (Stormtrooper) -> Paratrooper/Marines...
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
Hurrah! for once something new in the Civ units conception. If I may, let me 'tweak' this just a bit...
Medieval:
Rock: Man-at-Arms*
Paper: Crossbowman
Scissors: Knight
The Pikes are really an early Renaissance weapon ("Death of Knights"). Aside from numerous Spearman hold-overs, the 'classic' medieval infantry were armored or semi-armored men with shields, swords (mostly), battle-axes, maces, etc. Man-at-Arms covers the lot neatly.
Enlightenment:
Rock: Fusilier*
Paper: Field Cannon
Scissors: Heavy Horse*
Let's see, between 1650 and 1775, or roughly the 'Enlightenment' period, mounted troops (in Europe, at least) were variously Cuirassiers, Heavy Horse, Light Horse, Dragoons, Heavy Dragoons, Hussars or Chasseurs - not including Uhlans or Lancers, which were rather specialized light cavalry. The contemporary term for an army was, in fact: "Horse, Foot, and Dragoons".
Industrial
Rock: Rifleman*
Paper: Field Cannon/Rifled Cannon*
Scissors: Cavalry
The 'classic' smoothbore cannon was in use from the 1650s until the 1860s, crossing both the Enlightenment and early Industrial Eras. IF we need anther unit at all, the rifling of the cannon increased the range and accuracy and coincided with decent fuzes that actually allowed reliable explosive charge shells - much more effective. Furthermore, the conversion took place incredibly fast: the Prussian Army completely re-equipped all of its artillery in 4 years - 1866 to 1870, and the US Army during the 4 years of the Civil War went from virtually all smoothbore to 75 - 80% rifled cannon. So, this could be a Real Cheap Upgrade involving a change in Combat Factors only.
The Gatling Gun first, only lasted about 20 years: 1864 to 1885, and second, was horribly prone to jamming - a miserably unreliable weapon which on no battlefield in no war had any dramatically positive effect.
Modern/Atomic
Rock: Infantry
Paper: Artillery
Scissors: Tank
"It is with artillery that war is made" - 'nuff said. The artillery firing from off the battlefield directed by a forward observer is the single most deadly weapon in the Modern Era - it accounted for about 50% of all battlefield casualties in World War Two, and bayonets, tanks, rifles, machine-guns, bombs, flamethrowers and everything else accounted for the other half.
The Machine gun should Not, Never, Ever be a separate unit in a game with the scale of Civ. The largest purely machine-gun-only unit was a battalion. Whereas, even at the start of World War One, EVERY 'rifle' battalion also included machine guns. By 1940 they were down to company-platoon level, an integral part of 'regular' Infantry.
Information
Rock: Mechanised Infantry
Paper: Rocket Artillery
Scissors: Modern Armour
I was in charge of teaching the first MLRS (Multiple-Launch Rocket System) artillery units' fire direction crews in the US Army back in the 1980s, and they and their like are the modern Ranged Unit: entirely mechanized, with GPS on-board the launcher they can stop anywhere, fire the equivalent of a battalion's worth of regular artillery and be gone again in minutes. They also have generally longer range than regular 'tube' artillery, so: more Combat Factor, More Speed, More Range. What's not to like?
Now, as for the 'Scout' line, may I suggest:
Ancient/Classical/Medieval:
Scout
Renaissance/Enlightenment:
Dragoons* = Mounted troops who dismount to fight, use cheap horses so require No Resources
Industrial/Modern:
Armored Car* = Fastest Ground Unit in the game
Atomic/Information:
Helicopter
And as for the 'Siege' line, make them all Support Units like the Battering Ram and Tower, because, frankly, neither the Catapult nor the Bombard were ever much use against troops in the field - the Bombards took hours to load, so any target would either have to be a permanent wall or be obliging enough to stand there most of the day while you lumbered into position and loaded up.
Then, when you get to Field Cannon, Artillery, and Rocket Artillery, they all get a Bonus against City defenses because, frankly, they were deadly against any of the pre-Renaissance walls - that's why everybody had to suddenly spend buckets of money on Vauban geometric fortifications in the late Renaissance to protect themselves...
Antitank guns/rifles. bazookas, missiles, like Machine Guns, are never separate units, they should be specialized type of 'Promotion' for Melee infantry. Allow the AI/player to add Heavy Weapons to all of his units of a given type when they get a certain Tech giving the unit a bonus of + X Points against Armor or Other Non-Armor Units.
Possible Heavy Weapons for your Melee/Infantry:
Gatling Guns - Industrial Era - Bonus against Other Ground Units - Tech: Chemistry
Machineguns - Modern Era - Bonus against Other Ground Units - Tech: Advanced Ballistics
Light Antitank Guns - Atomic Era - bonus against Armor - Tech: Chemistry
Antitank Missiles - Information Era - bonus against Armor - Tech: Composites
We could, in fact, do all kinds of things with Specialized Promotions, like adding the Paratrooper capability to certain types of units (but also increasing their Maintenance Cost - requires specialized training facilities), a Grenadier/Combat Engineer/Stormtrooper Reinforcement that gives a Bonus against cities, fortifications and districts, and so on and on.
Okay, that may have been more than a bit...
Last edited:
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
Suggestions for unit graphics and factors, if you need them:
Graphics:
Man-at-Arms - look at the Norman infantry at Hastings, with mail shirt, helmet, shield and sword, or the English 'billmen' of the 13th century, carrying a large can-opener on a stick (I kid you not, that's what it looks like!)
Fusilier - Any of the tricorn-hat-wearing infantry of Europe in the mid-18th century. They should be depicted in 2 lines, front kneeling to fire, very 'rigid' looking because it was the age of 'linear tactics' - which makes a distinctive graphic
Heavy Horse - The 'regular' cavalry of the War of the Spanish Succession (1702 - 1714) or the Seven Years' War (1756-1763) are the best bet: tricorn hat, heavy colorful coat, pistols, swords - and they look distinctively different from the Knights of the high middle ages or the cavalry of the 19th Century/Industrial Era.
Rifled Cannon - Look at illustrations of the Union artillery at the end of the Civil War, or the Prussian artillery in the Franco-Prussian War. At a glance, the guns themselves don't look hugely different from the smoothbore pieces of the previous 2 centuries, but they tend to have more iron/steel in the gun carriage and the crews are in much more subdued uniforms.
Dragoons - The French Dragoons of the early 18th century: they wore a distinctive fur-trimmed floppy hat, long coats very different from anything before or after, and carried carbines instead of pistols - easy to differentiate them graphically from anything else on a horse in the game
Armored Car - there are a host of WWII models to use: the German 8-wheeled SdKfw types with weapons from machine-guns to 50mm cannon, the British 'Dingo' light cars which were pure scout vehicles, the French Panhard types that were used by a bunch of countries besides France, including the German Wehrmacht.
Factors:
Man-at-Arms - Melee Unit, Combat Factor = 40 - 45, Movement 2. He can take on Pikemen, but is at a serious disadvantage in the open if hit by Knights
Fusilier - Melee Unit, Combat Factor = 55, Movement 2. Gets a +5 Defensive Bonus against Mounted Units (bayonets). I'd love (and have argued) for a Ranged Attack Before Melee mechanism for this and all other Firearm infantry, which in this case would be a 25 - 30 point Fire Attack: it should be very difficult for Spearmen or Warriors to even get into Melee with them.
Heavy Horse - Heavy Cavalry Unit, Combat Factor = 55, Movement 4.
Rifled Cannon - Ranged Unit, Combat Factor Melee = 50, Ranged 65, Range = 2, Movement = 2. + 5 Bonus against Ancient. Medieval, Renaissance Walls. Because the factor increases are so small, this is probably the Least Needed addition to the game.
Dragoons - Recon Unit, Combat Factor = 40, Movement = 4. Nobody gets an 'anti-mounted' bonus against these, because they dismount to fight
Armored Car - Recon Unit, Combat Factor = 65, Movement 5 with the Recon movement (Armored Cars tended to be 4 or more wheel drive and high horsepower)
I would be very tempted to remove the Ranger completely, at least as a regular Recon Unit. Save him for somebody's Unique (American Frontiersman?) or other Specialized Unit.
Graphics:
Man-at-Arms - look at the Norman infantry at Hastings, with mail shirt, helmet, shield and sword, or the English 'billmen' of the 13th century, carrying a large can-opener on a stick (I kid you not, that's what it looks like!)
Fusilier - Any of the tricorn-hat-wearing infantry of Europe in the mid-18th century. They should be depicted in 2 lines, front kneeling to fire, very 'rigid' looking because it was the age of 'linear tactics' - which makes a distinctive graphic
Heavy Horse - The 'regular' cavalry of the War of the Spanish Succession (1702 - 1714) or the Seven Years' War (1756-1763) are the best bet: tricorn hat, heavy colorful coat, pistols, swords - and they look distinctively different from the Knights of the high middle ages or the cavalry of the 19th Century/Industrial Era.
Rifled Cannon - Look at illustrations of the Union artillery at the end of the Civil War, or the Prussian artillery in the Franco-Prussian War. At a glance, the guns themselves don't look hugely different from the smoothbore pieces of the previous 2 centuries, but they tend to have more iron/steel in the gun carriage and the crews are in much more subdued uniforms.
Dragoons - The French Dragoons of the early 18th century: they wore a distinctive fur-trimmed floppy hat, long coats very different from anything before or after, and carried carbines instead of pistols - easy to differentiate them graphically from anything else on a horse in the game
Armored Car - there are a host of WWII models to use: the German 8-wheeled SdKfw types with weapons from machine-guns to 50mm cannon, the British 'Dingo' light cars which were pure scout vehicles, the French Panhard types that were used by a bunch of countries besides France, including the German Wehrmacht.
Factors:
Man-at-Arms - Melee Unit, Combat Factor = 40 - 45, Movement 2. He can take on Pikemen, but is at a serious disadvantage in the open if hit by Knights
Fusilier - Melee Unit, Combat Factor = 55, Movement 2. Gets a +5 Defensive Bonus against Mounted Units (bayonets). I'd love (and have argued) for a Ranged Attack Before Melee mechanism for this and all other Firearm infantry, which in this case would be a 25 - 30 point Fire Attack: it should be very difficult for Spearmen or Warriors to even get into Melee with them.
Heavy Horse - Heavy Cavalry Unit, Combat Factor = 55, Movement 4.
Rifled Cannon - Ranged Unit, Combat Factor Melee = 50, Ranged 65, Range = 2, Movement = 2. + 5 Bonus against Ancient. Medieval, Renaissance Walls. Because the factor increases are so small, this is probably the Least Needed addition to the game.
Dragoons - Recon Unit, Combat Factor = 40, Movement = 4. Nobody gets an 'anti-mounted' bonus against these, because they dismount to fight
Armored Car - Recon Unit, Combat Factor = 65, Movement 5 with the Recon movement (Armored Cars tended to be 4 or more wheel drive and high horsepower)
I would be very tempted to remove the Ranger completely, at least as a regular Recon Unit. Save him for somebody's Unique (American Frontiersman?) or other Specialized Unit.
Lonecat Nekophrodite
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One instance you suggested that Fusiliers should be in LATE Renaissance Era, The other suggested that they should be in Early Industrial era
In both instance, you suggested that they're a new 'combined class' that upgrades from either Melee or Anticavalry slot.
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Rise of Nations had this figured out years ago. Each era had its own iteration of a unit type. Available right at the beginning of a new era. Of course sometimes you got silly names like "elite javelins" and "elite pikes". But it still worked.
Almost all of them were strong against one unit but weak against another, so it was important to have at a good variety.
https://riseofnations.fandom.com/wiki/Units
Almost all of them were strong against one unit but weak against another, so it was important to have at a good variety.
https://riseofnations.fandom.com/wiki/Units
Lonecat Nekophrodite
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^ Yes Rise of Nations was made by many of Sid's former employees and their aim is to make Age of Empires style RTS. Basically it is an improved AoEII that spans from Copper Age to Info Era.
The blanket 'class' concept works under RTS with some tactical levels but with high strategic TBS that's later adopted Panzer General combat engine... This comes a problem. As @Boris Gudenuf cited long ago and in so many occasions that distinctions between Melee and Anticav ends when first arquebus was mass produced and Musketmen has NO MELEE FACTOR AT ALL. Mainstray footsloggers of the Renaissance is Pike and Shot, and Musketmen virtually has no place in it. his proposals to save this unit is to make it ranged with the range of 1 (effectively slinger with much stronger attack and slightly cheaper than cannonry). he elaborates that Musketmen will eventually becomes Fusiliers (Line Infantry) , and by Renaissance a new unit class emerges to replace BOTH Melee and Anticav, actually this class exists in previous Civ games (Gunpowder, Boris favored Firepower while I prefer Infantry) . This Idea is what i'm using rightnow.
RoN models aren't perfect however, there were game changers in history. in Enlightenment Era there were separate 'Musketeer' and 'Fusilier' while actually these units are the same Line Infantry. their model is that there's Ranged and 'Heavy' (Melee with hefty combat bonus against cavalry. but again another Antitank Polearms situations did somehow exists.
And this is a reason why I spent several Qs to rework on unit lists for the second version of my mod. and even had to consider many many solutions, this included creating separate Antitank class that no any Anticav units can kill tank this easy 
) But infantrymen in the Enlightenment Era all armed with flintlock muskets that has bayonet sockets. this come a problem.
But why Big Huge Games (RoN developing studio) opted not to use the term 'Light Infantry' or 'Riflemen' to refer to this type of unit?
PS: Finished working on Antitank class, now Pondering about what to do with Ranged and MGs in my modding endeavour. maybe with my mod have longer Industrial Era, then there's gotta be rifleman by the late industrial that's Infantry (melee combat) and MG as another Infantry class with 1hex range, and the two will eventually merged by the mid or late Modern era as 'Infantry' (with MG added), i've just got a HEUREKA just few hours earlier.!
The blanket 'class' concept works under RTS with some tactical levels but with high strategic TBS that's later adopted Panzer General combat engine... This comes a problem. As @Boris Gudenuf cited long ago and in so many occasions that distinctions between Melee and Anticav ends when first arquebus was mass produced and Musketmen has NO MELEE FACTOR AT ALL. Mainstray footsloggers of the Renaissance is Pike and Shot, and Musketmen virtually has no place in it. his proposals to save this unit is to make it ranged with the range of 1 (effectively slinger with much stronger attack and slightly cheaper than cannonry). he elaborates that Musketmen will eventually becomes Fusiliers (Line Infantry) , and by Renaissance a new unit class emerges to replace BOTH Melee and Anticav, actually this class exists in previous Civ games (Gunpowder, Boris favored Firepower while I prefer Infantry) . This Idea is what i'm using rightnow.
RoN models aren't perfect however, there were game changers in history. in Enlightenment Era there were separate 'Musketeer' and 'Fusilier' while actually these units are the same Line Infantry. their model is that there's Ranged and 'Heavy' (Melee with hefty combat bonus against cavalry. but again another Antitank Polearms situations did somehow exists.
And this is a reason why I spent several Qs to rework on unit lists for the second version of my mod. and even had to consider many many solutions, this included creating separate Antitank class that no any Anticav units can kill tank this easy ) But infantrymen in the Enlightenment Era all armed with flintlock muskets that has bayonet sockets. this come a problem.But why Big Huge Games (RoN developing studio) opted not to use the term 'Light Infantry' or 'Riflemen' to refer to this type of unit?
PS: Finished working on Antitank class, now Pondering about what to do with Ranged and MGs in my modding endeavour. maybe with my mod have longer Industrial Era, then there's gotta be rifleman by the late industrial that's Infantry (melee combat) and MG as another Infantry class with 1hex range, and the two will eventually merged by the mid or late Modern era as 'Infantry' (with MG added), i've just got a HEUREKA just few hours earlier.!
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