Civilization Balance

Yeah I consider it poor sportsmanship too, but I do reload maps sometimes if I get a bad start or just a boring looking map, but regenning until you get a special in your fat cross is pushing it, plus I usually play on emperor so its a challenge. Still, whatever floats your boat, but its totally uncalled for to denigrate people who don't spam regenerate until they get the best possible start.
 
Anyways, I think a lot of the 'balance' issue depends on playstyle and map type. Some may consider Malakim weak, but on Arid maps their special ability can be a huge boost. Also, If you are good at building but no so good at war then a builder civ is naturally going to be more powerful, and vice versa. Still, I think its clear that some civs like the Doviello just aren't that good compared to other civs.
 
Not specifically talking about map regeneration, but I am somewhat curious how often players 'throw out' a map they don't like... without really realizing it.

To a certain extent, a good faction is one that can win with the less than great starts (Though I think we've all had the 'one cities worth of grasssland in an otherwise all tundra' start)

Back more on to the topic: Someone mentioned Axemen rushing with the Khazad (Khandros FIr to be exact) how exactly is that faster than Horselords? Is there some nuance I'm missing? Strength 4 axemen (5 if you are lucky) that can move 2 squares on hills, or Strength 4 Horsemen that can move 4 squares on plains (And 2 squares on hills). Horsemen gain XP faster due to the greater move, and that really quickly annuls the potential +1 base strength advantage, if the khazad found bronze to work. (And heck, the Khazad lose almost all their bonus' if you expand aggresively with them, so why not instead use the Chirp?)
 
Basil II said:
Anyways, I think a lot of the 'balance' issue depends on playstyle and map type. Some may consider Malakim weak, but on Arid maps their special ability can be a huge boost. Also, If you are good at building but no so good at war then a builder civ is naturally going to be more powerful, and vice versa. Still, I think its clear that some civs like the Doviello just aren't that good compared to other civs.
Click to expand...

I think the biggest thing to consider in the 'playstyle' arena, is map types. Player skill aside, a map of a given type can greatly influence the strength of various civs, and most people I know have a large preference towards certain maps.


As for how you go about winning, I feel there should be a pretty objective gold standard for this. Normalized score, for instance, or finish date are pretty good ways to determine how effective you were at winning.
 
Grigori seem to be an interesting one... results so far are 2, 3, 6, 6.5, 7 and 9. Almost completely even distribution across the spread. Amazing... some people think they're completely useless, others think overpowered, others think average. Most other civs people tend to agree on.

That's where this kind of statistical analysis comes in handy. We need lots more submissions, though, before it becomes statistically significant... keep 'em coming!
 
I think the difference in people's rating of the Grigori depends on how much the player relies on religion. If the player is religion-reliant, they hate the Grigori; if they'd rather have Archmages, and don't think magic was gimped (it wasn't), they like the rapid rate of advancement for Grigori adventurers.
 
Yeah. Personally, I love Grigori... a good use I've found for adventurers is actually Marksmen... I find that Marksmen are the hardest tier 4 unit to get because you need to get a longbowman up to lvl 6 (it is lvl 6, right?), which is annoyingly hard due to the longbow's useless attack. For adventurers you just need to wait, though. Comes in handy, because I like to have 4 of each national unit.
 
Amurites: 6 (I like the firebows an the spellteaching)
Balseraphs: 7
Bannor: 6
Calabim: 8
Clan of Embers: 8 (They are very fast in the beginning)
Doviello: 3 (I don´t know what to do with them)
Elohim: 5
Grigori: 6 (When you start next to an enemy, the first Hero settels it.)
Hippus: 8 (Fast Horses, but I don´t like Horses)
Illians: 4
Infernal: 6 (strong, but too late)
Khazad: 6 (no change of improving their Lands)
Kuriotates: 2
Lanun 7
Ljosalfar: 9 (Yes they are ballanced, strong in every part of the game. At the start they are able to build in where no one else can build ´til bronce, and they start with two very fast Scouts, in middel and late games they have got the best citys)
Luchuirp: 7 (Golem are nice, but they lack the high exp. units)
Malakim: 6
Mercurians: 5 (too late, but when you start with the capital of the Sidar, it´s a lot of fun)
Sheaim: 7 (when I played them, they where too slow. )
Sidar: 7
Svartalfar: 7 (When you play them along with a AC-pusching Sheaim, thier empire is quiet soon wasted)
 
Amurites 7 (great defensive assassins, world spell, arc/phi)
Balseraphs 6 (requires align change for best unit, never changes traits on quick)
Bannor 3 (boring melee SoD, great defense)
Calabim 5 (late strat, even streamlined)
Clan of Embers 4 (fun, VERY slow to tech, blaze needs to cause fire faster)
Doviello 2 (boring melee)
Elohim 4 (boring melee, worldspell nice if quick speed)
Grigori 2 (crappy heros and no relig)
Hippus 4 (early civ, nice worldspell)
Illians
Infernal
Khazad 5 (kandros is nice)
Kuriotates 5 (sprawling!)
Lanun 7 (conquest civic ftw, coves, worldspell, tsunami)
Ljosalfar 6 (forest cottages, quickest to baron and druid)
Luchuirp 8 (worldspell)
Malakim
Mercurians
Sheaim 6 (palace death mana, arc/sum)
Sidar 4 (late strat)
Svartalfar 9 (hero, forest cottages, arc/rai, micromanagement world spell)

Quick speed, small/standard size.
 
ophite said:
I think the difference in people's rating of the Grigori depends on how much the player relies on religion. If the player is religion-reliant, they hate the Grigori; if they'd rather have Archmages, and don't think magic was gimped (it wasn't), they like the rapid rate of advancement for Grigori adventurers.
Click to expand...

It's not like you can tech strength of will before adepts would have the xp anyway. Slightly better archs instead of temples, religious civics, early medics (disciples and priests - and the spells they come with) and religious heroes? No way. And it's a pain to pop a sage first or second for an academy in cap.

Besides, if you want to beeline strength of will, ignoring religions, Amurite are better. They get better palace mana and with their world spell, they will have xp like Grig heros. And you get Gov.

Sheaim is also a better strength of will beeline.

Lastly, ancient forests being practically instant really puts the nail in Grig's coffin and even if that gets fixed, see above.
 
Another thing to consider with the Grig is how much you like normal great people.

I love academies, I love settled engineers, I love holy shrines, and I can't get any of those with the Grigori. (In the case of holy shrines, the Grig would have hell getting them even if they could found religions.)

Back more on to the topic: Someone mentioned Axemen rushing with the Khazad (Khandros FIr to be exact) how exactly is that faster than Horselords? Is there some nuance I'm missing? Strength 4 axemen (5 if you are lucky) that can move 2 squares on hills, or Strength 4 Horsemen that can move 4 squares on plains (And 2 squares on hills). Horsemen gain XP faster due to the greater move, and that really quickly annuls the potential +1 base strength advantage, if the khazad found bronze to work. (And heck, the Khazad lose almost all their bonus' if you expand aggresively with them, so why not instead use the Chirp?)
Click to expand...

I mean warriors for both of them, not Axemen for Kandros/Horsemen for Tasunke. Neither of them NEED a tier 3 tech unit to go clobber someone early even on Deity. Both can do it with overwhelming numbers of warriors, but the Khazad do it better due to more happiness and earlier mining.
 
Monkeyfinger said:
Another thing to consider with the Grig is how much you like normal great people.

I love academies, I love settled engineers, I love holy shrines, and I can't get any of those with the Grigori. (In the case of holy shrines, the Grig would have hell getting them even if they could found religions.)
Click to expand...
Well that depends how much you focus on Adventurers. When I played as Grig, intentionally avoiding things that give bonuses to non-adventurer great people never occured to me, so I had plenty of bards, engineers and sages. Casting Ardor twice (thanks to Birthright Regained) = a hell of a lot of great people of all sorts, except Prophets, of course. So yeah, no holy shrines, or at most maybe one or two. But plenty of great commanders and academies. Great Commanders and Adventurers go really well together, too... mmm... extra XP... take Raiders for your optional trait and your heroes get pretty crazy pretty fast.

The lack of religion is definitely a drawback, but Ardor is such an amazing world spell, and the adventurers are so useful that it makes up for it, imho. Wouldn't say they're overpowered, still... but I'd probably give them maybe a 6.5 or 7. I'm not doing ratings myself though as I've only had three complete (and numerous partial) games so far, so I haven't had a chance to try every civ. Amurites, Hippus and Grigori all treated me very well, though.
 
For SP:

Amurites 7 (Overall good, metamagic mana from palace, but plain)
Balseraphs 9 (Loki, Creative for your first cities,Freaks, Arena...Whatever you want but not game-breaking)
Bannor ? (Haven't played yet, looks so much boring)
Calabim 8 (Burjahs' burning blood, vampirism,Hero, Vampires but their power comes very late.)
Clan of Embers 6 (Barrens, but the resarch penalty and no libraries are killing,)

Doviello ?
Elohim 7 (Good defensive civ with fast and strong medics and great WS)
Grigori 8 (Even with the magic nerf, you can hve 2-3 heroes before many others civs get theirs. If you promote on into the recon line, Caged animals will bring tons of culture and happines into your empire.)
Hippus ?
Illians ?
Infernal 6
Khazad 5 (Good hero,)
Kuriotates 6 (sprawling!)
Lanun 7 (9 in water heavy maps)
Ljosalfar 7 (improvments in forests)
Luchuirp ?
Malakim ?
Mercurians ?
Sheaim 10 (Mana from palace, Pyre Zombies, ICS with planar gates, Worldspell)
Sidar 8 (uberspecialists)
Svartalfar ?
 
actually when you play Grigori in SP you dont even need to rush for Magic, but go for melee at the beginning. As soon as you have City Raider Promotion enabled you already have two Swordman Heroes running around and then you can knock the enemy's cities down, one by one, with 2 units ... later you can accompany them by the insanely strong Hero-Mages (and later Archmages).

You can easily get 4 heroes in 200 rounds and you can customize them according to your needs and that IS overpowered.

Regarding Religion. At the beginning you think you cant live without it. Then I played a game with Ljolsalfar on a creation.py-map. The first incense I got in turn 191. Suddenly you realise that Religion is NOT that important at all ...
 
Ah also top econimies:

1. Svalt / Ljos Forest cottage spamming, CE hc
2. Lanun, Water/Forest FoL Guardian SE, Alot of food and mood, best viable SE model in FfH.
3. rest?
 
Another variable you need to throw into this would be role playing. I play Perpentach/Balseraph about 90% of the time. I am constantly changing build orders and tech research to coincide with my leaders insanity. This makes the game a lot harder and pushes an otherwise strong civ to one that needs a lot of help.

Take the Lanun for example. I never build a city that does not border an ocean tile with them, even if it severely handicaps my city position choices. I do this because it is "in character."

How about the Elohim? You can get swarmed by settler spam pretty quick, but I will never declare war while playing as the Elohim, I insist on waiting for someone to declare war on me.
 
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