Civilization II: A Critical Analysis Of Flawed Game Design

[Mercator]

Want to try multi sometime? It's truly a difference experience!

I don't think I have the time and commitment for it... I did try multiplaying with my girlfriend last week, but we couldn't figure out how to get past the firewalls/routers. Which ports do I need to forward?

Keep in mind that this is the 3-times-longer-tech, infinite turns, can't-take-tech-on-city-capture, WWII-AI version. If you want it with "normal" settings - that is, only with the terrain changes and the unit stat changes, just let me know - however when I play the game with a saved game in the folder, it ignores the above changes I mentioned. I actually have to use "begin scenario" for any of the above changes to apply.

The infinite turns, can't-take-tech-on-city-capture and WWII AI are savegame/scenario specific settings. You can only enable them through the cheat menu, or by playing a scenario that had those things switched on. They're only stored within the savegame/scenario itself.

I'm not sure if I'll ever try these rules, but I've saved them, and it'll make it easier for other people to have a go at playing a game with your settings too. So thanks!

 

[Zhoragh]

Regarding what ports to forward, I quite frankly have no idea. However, I don't think firewall or router make any difference at all if you're not the one that is hosting the game. Unless I'm wrong, joining a game has no such problems.

On a different note, saving games is nice and I wouldn't particularly care if it took 2 years to finish the game, though it might be a bit awkward.

 

[Mercator]

On a different note, saving games is nice and I wouldn't particularly care if it took 2 years to finish the game, though it might be a bit awkward.

Well, I know about long single player games. I've still got a game going that I started in 2002 or something. That's a bit more difficult with multiplayer, though, I'd think, unless you've got a group of friends that also plays Civ2.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I read this entire thread today.

I, and perhaps others, found your title of "A Critical Analysis of Flawed Game Design" much too weighty for your arguments. You listed two issues which many players consider far too unimportant for such a title.

Here is my opinion. On the city walls issue, I partly disagree with you. Even at 80 shields and no maintenance cost city walls are an under utilized structure by most players. I would not increase their cost/shields. I do however agree with your thougts on catapult, cannon, artillery. Either as you suggest they should ignore city walls, like Howitzer does, or reduce its effect. For example, units attacked by these behind city walls have their defense doubled rather than tripled.

On the terrain issues, you are ignoring the issue of the cost of the improvements. Settlers are very valuable units, perhaps the most valuable unit. The fact that one terrain type is superior in all respects to another after a certain amount of settler time is not a problem to me at all. This is not to say that terrains cannot benefit from fine tuning.

Any experienced player can list a dozen more issues like these. The game can be fine tuned in many respects and what you have mentioned are two of many. Finally, and this is important, what is the point? The game is what it is, and unless the source code becomes available many issues are unchangable. For the rest, there are scenarios and rules.txt. For GOTMs we play scenarios every once in a while. I would not mind playing one with your rules. Make one and suggest it and join the fun in the GOTM forum. (By the way, besides playing against the computer and another human, competing against a bunch of enthusiastic players by playing the same game at the same time is a third way of enjoying civ.)

 

[Zhoragh]

I did mention in one of my posts that if enough people felt the cost increase for City Walls unnecessary, I'd be willing to drop it unconditionally because the changes to catas and so on more or less accomplish the goal.


As for terrains, yes, I understand your point, but this is in reference to general supertransformation. When you make the grassland change alone, as I've mentioned previously, you need to do some terrain changes for your cities early in the game or you can end up with cities that are utterly useless. This is, not to mention, that one could just as easily modify the time it takes to make terrain changes, but I haven't gotten that far, yet. Oftentimes I find a single settler or engineer is sufficient to do terrain changes, and if I want to expand those changes will help me to create those expansions faster as the city becomes stronger.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

When you make the grassland change alone, as I've mentioned previously, you need to do some terrain changes for your cities early in the game or you can end up with cities that are utterly useless.

1 tile islands are currently that way (produce very few shields) and they are hardly useless. Except for the very early game few things are built all the way, they are partially rush bought. With enough arrows, lack of shields is not that big of a deal.

 

[Ace]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhoragh
When you make the grassland change alone, as I've mentioned previously, you need to do some terrain changes for your cities early in the game or you can end up with cities that are utterly useless.

That is part of the charm of the game. Each start is different, the mix of land is never quite the same, and what you make of the available land determines the process of your game. The only city that is "utterly useless" is one on a glacier (the pole) with no specials. Or one in the middle of a mountain range, but neither of these two types can survive, soooo....

Ali is quite right. Its gold that drives the game, especially, once one gets a Republic or Democracy up and running. As long as a city has one surplus food, it will grow by celebrating until all its useable hexes are being worked, and the constant delivery of freight will provide a steady flow of gold (and beakers) to finance new units and new city improvements.

1 tile island cities can become real powerhouses with a little TLC. Starting with just a grassland hex, and no specials, the city, with an aquduct, a harbor, and a sewer system, can grow to size 21+ and with Hoover Dam, a factory, and an offshore platform, the city can generate 52+ shields. Thats enough to build a truck each turn and support a garrison unit and a transport. Not to mention the 63 trade arrows the city is generating and 18+ arrows for each of its 3 trade routes, thats about 117+ trade arrows, not too shabby for a 1 tile city. And most of that type of city does have either a fish or a whale near it.

 

[Zhoragh]

A city with nothing but grassland squares at 1 trade per square when aqueducts aren't yet available is notably different from a 1-tile island where you're getting 2 trade per square. I won't deny 1-tile islands are real powerhouses, but their production power doesn't exist until late game (I'm talking about early game right now), and the difference of 1 trade to 2 trade is rather significant. If I'm to put this another way, plains has 2-1-1, grassland would have 3-0-1, and water would have 2-0-2 (with a harbor), where I'm not including late-game modifications. You say that it's the beauty of having various terrain types, but this is exactly my point: I want to *create* a variation of terrain types. Early on, grassland shields trump plains. Period. With the change, each square has it's own particular significance. The significance may not be as intense when you're in a republic or democracy and can grow at a population per turn, but in games where you're in a major war and have enough military out that you cannot possibly ever keep the happiness level stable (or, simply, that you don't have the production to support troops), Monarch or Communism, or Fundamentalism is necessary, and when you're under those and you say, research sewer systems, having a bunch of grasslands to switch all those plains, or waters, or forests on river squares, is a good thing for increasing a city's population, since you have no other choice in the matter.