Civilizations shouldn't prioritize always Temple of Arthemis over Parthenon

[jray]

Actually, the best leader type to build panthenon is those with industrious. By doing so you essentially have an industrious+1/2-philosophical leader which the game tries to avoid.

With Warlords and its 11 traits now, only 36 of the 110 possible combinations are represented. Although Phi/Ind would be fun (GP's and WW's everywhere!), I wouldn't consider it over-powered... (1/2 Phi)/Ind even less so.

You quickly chop for it at a border non-GP- producing city where you want large cultural border. Your wander-stacked city (I usually focus on one city with the Stonehenge/Oracle combo if I play an industrious leader) will give you all the great priest in the early game.

Well, suppose you use a Philosophical leader and build National Epic in your wonder-stacked city. You'll need to have at least 16 raw GPP/Turn there (or 18, if you put Parthenon somewhere else) for the Parthenon to yield a higher net GPP/Turn compared to putting Temple of Artemis there instead. That's 8 wonders! Or perhaps 6 wonders and 2 specialists, or 3 wonders and 4 specialists, etc. And that's only the break-even point. The relative benefits of Parthenon over ToA increase only slowly with more and more raw GPP/Turn.

If you leave out National Epic, you still need to have at least 10-12 raw GPP/Turn there for Parthenon to beat ToA. And if you have a non-Philosophical leader too, the threshold is 4-6 raw GPP/Turn, which you get with your Stonehenge/Oracle combo and one extra wonder or specialist if you built Parthenon elsewhere. But still, I'd rather have the free +1 hammer/+1 gold/+100% trade routes from ToA .

 

[LucyDuke]

With Warlords and its 11 traits now, only 36 of the 110 possible combinations are represented. Although Phi/Ind would be fun (GP's and WW's everywhere!), I wouldn't consider it over-powered... (1/2 Phi)/Ind even less so.

This makes me wonder, are there any articles or threads that discuss the different combinations and missing combinations? A quick search didn't show anything, maybe somebody that knows the ropes can remember something. I think I've read about "forbidden combinations", this seems like something that must have been discussed at length. Anyone know?

 

[jray]

This makes me wonder, are there any articles or threads that discuss the different combinations and missing combinations? A quick search didn't show anything, maybe somebody that knows the ropes can remember something. I think I've read about "forbidden combinations", this seems like something that must have been discussed at length. Anyone know?

The only two combinations I have heard referred to as "forbidden" are Phi/Ind and Agg/Cha.

Phi/Ind was touted in Vanilla Civ4, and it did stand out more then when only 30 of the 56 possible combinations were included. It was the only particularly appealing missing combo. (Plus each of those traits seemed more powerful until the Warlords changes... now I think Phi and Ind are both a little weak).

Agg/Cha would be a pretty scary warmonger, with Combat VI's popping all over the place . I'm rather surprised that Agg/Pro (Tokugawa) is allowed too, having gunpowder units with free Combat I + Garrison I + Drill I.

But all of this is just hearsay as far as I know. I've never seen anything authoritative from Firaxis on the matter.

 

[aelf]

It's funny how one person can make essentially the same points as another person before him without even the least bit of acknowledgement. I feel as if I'm invisible.

It's not about recognition (does it matter here?). I just find it somewhat annoying that someone repeats what I've said only one post earlier and does not do so to state agreement/disagreement. Seems a bit rude.

 

[jray]

It's funny how one person can make essentially the same points as another person before him without even the least bit of acknowledgement. I feel as if I'm invisible.

It's not about recognition (does it matter here?). I just find it somewhat annoying that someone repeats what I've said only one post earlier and does not do so to state agreement/disagreement. Seems a bit rude.

Which post and whom are you talking about? If it's me, I apologize, it was an oversight... but looking back at your posts I have no clue what you're upset about.

 

[aelf]

Which post and whom are you talking about? If it's me, I apologize, it was an oversight... but looking back at your posts I have no clue what you're upset about.

Maybe you didn't get what I meant. But I was essentially saying the same things you said later on, only less elaborate.

 

[LucyDuke]

Priest and merchants are useless most of the time.

Oh, I think "most of the time" is an overstatement. Priests are a must if you've got holy cities, and merchants are excellent to settle in ice cities that are full of production-potential but starved for food. (I don't see any particular strength beyond that, am I missing something?)

I'm rather surprised that Agg/Pro (Tokugawa) is allowed too, having gunpowder units with free Combat I + Garrison I + Drill I.

But all of this is just hearsay as far as I know. I've never seen anything authoritative from Firaxis on the matter.

Tokugawa is one of my favorite warmongers for that very (unfair) reason. Popping out Riflemen with, on top of the three free promotions, +4 from Barracks, +2 from Vassalage, +2 from Theocracy, +2 from Pentagon, +4 from West Point, and +2 from each of however many GGs I can settle there, is terrifying way to raise an army. New soldiers with six or more promotions before they've even seen battle is very unbalancing in your favor. Throw in the Heroic Epic and maybe a Military Academy and you've got a one-city war factory.

As far as the forbidding, I'm not looking for "authority", just wondering if anyone has examined the possible trait combinations in depth. Maybe this is something I should take on despite being a n00b to these boards. Or, maybe it's absurdly ambitious. But I'm curious.

 

[jray]

As far as the forbidding, I'm not looking for "authority", just wondering if anyone has examined the possible trait combinations in depth. Maybe this is something I should take on despite being a n00b to these boards. Or, maybe it's absurdly ambitious. But I'm curious.

Yeah, here's an article that comes to mind:

Traits, Warlords, and Synergy

I think the second post there on "Double Trait Synergies" (although not really fleshed out much) is along the lines you're looking for.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=181733

 

[theboxseat]

Early game the Parthenon rocks

Double the GP points in say your capital

Pumping out GP early makes all the differance

 

[KMadCandy]

i don't think i've ever built ToA. but watch which city does. if you get a great merchant and aren't going to settle him, the ToA city is 99% of the time your best choice. i've gotten almost twice from it than i would have gotten from a capital farther from me with 6 higher population. i'd never thought about that til i read about it here so figured it might be worth a mention.

 

[gettingfat]

Oh, I think "most of the time" is an overstatement. Priests are a must if you've got holy cities, and merchants are excellent to settle in ice cities that are full of production-potential but starved for food. (I don't see any particular strength beyond that, am I missing something?)

Settle in your holy city and build a shrine. Leave a national wonder slot to allow Wall street to be built later. With all the grocery and market you will get +18 golds per turn (more if you play England) from the settled merchant in this city. If you settle two GM the bonus food will allow you work a hill gold mine or desert incense or keep another merchant specialist. Add the gold generated from the shrine You'll have enough gold to coat even your washroom floor.

 

[LucyDuke]

i don't think i've ever built ToA. but watch which city does. if you get a great merchant and aren't going to settle him, the ToA city is 99% of the time your best choice. i've gotten almost twice from it than i would have gotten from a capital farther from me with 6 higher population. i'd never thought about that til i read about it here so figured it might be worth a mention.

You just made me realize why my merchant was bringing home bacon from Delhi last night. Thanks!

Settle in your holy city and build a shrine. Leave a national wonder slot to allow Wall street to be built later. With all the grocery and market you will get +18 golds per turn (more if you play England) from the settled merchant in this city. If you settle two GM the bonus food will allow you work a hill gold mine or desert incense or keep another merchant specialist. Add the gold generated from the shrine You'll have enough gold to coat even your washroom floor.

A particular strength, you're right. How does England squeeze out extra gold from a GM?

 

[botur2young]

Phi/Ind was touted in Vanilla Civ4, and it did stand out more then when only 30 of the 56 possible combinations were included.

With Warlords and its 11 traits now, only 36 of the 110 possible combinations are represented.

By my calculations, there were only 28 possible trait combinations (and 26 leaders) in vanilla, and only 55 trait combinations in Warlords.

 

[LucyDuke]

By my calculations, there were only 28 possible trait combinations (and 26 leaders) in vanilla, and only 55 trait combinations in Warlords.

I ran into that this morning when I was charting the possibilities. People are just multiplying, forgetting that Agg/Cre and Cre/Agg are the same, and that Agg/Agg isn't available. A lot of changes involved recycling, too, so there are many Warlords combos that aren't used. But, I'm just agreeing with your claculations.

 

[jray]

I ran into that this morning when I was charting the possibilities. People are just multiplying, forgetting that Agg/Cre and Cre/Agg are the same, and that Agg/Agg isn't available. A lot of changes involved recycling, too, so there are many Warlords combos that aren't used. But, I'm just agreeing with your claculations.

By my calculations, there were only 28 possible trait combinations (and 26 leaders) in vanilla, and only 55 trait combinations in Warlords.

LOL, right you are. SSHHH, don't tell my Statistics PhD advisor!
So I guess it really was a sort of forbidden combination...

 

[gettingfat]

A particular strength, you're right. How does England squeeze out extra gold from a GM?

England leaders can build stock exchange instead of bank, giving additional 15% income. With that each GM gives you 6 x 315% = 18.9 golds/turn. I forgot the game will round up or down but combining with other income sources that should squeeze out 1 more gold per turn.

 

[KMadCandy]

With Warlords and its 11 traits now, only 36 of the 110 possible combinations are represented. Although Phi/Ind would be fun (GP's and WW's everywhere!), I wouldn't consider it over-powered.

for cultural games (at least at the lower levels where you have a chance to grab wonders) i really think it would be overpowered. you can play those games totally peacefully if you manage it right and if that's one of your goals, which renders many of the other traits completely worthless.

back ontopic, i tried to make ToA the other day but BIAFL, at least i got some one-time gold out of the attempts. so i've never seen its impact in one of my own cities.

sidenote, aelf i found your EMC threads only after the fact and #3 the trade route game, the screenshots are missing so it's frustrating to read. could you PM me a screenie or info about your ToA city when it was at its peak? so curious. thanks!

 

[aelf]

sidenote, aelf i found your EMC threads only after the fact and #3 the trade route game, the screenshots are missing so it's frustrating to read.

The screenshots seem fine to me. Can you see this one?

This was taken just before the ToA was obsolete, when the trade route economy was at its height. All trade-related buildings (including a castle) have been built.

 

[KMadCandy]

The screenshots seem fine to me. Can you see this one?

i can, thanks! nifty city!

ps the whole thread is working for me now that i checked since that one worked. but i know two separate times i tried to read it and got the red Xs in boxes rather than screenies. maybe photobucket was having issues. thank you, off to go read!

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Because I consider the Parthenon to be one of the weakest wonders in the game. It's only useful in a strictly specialist economy, which is in turn only doable under caste system, lots of farms and hapiness resources. Fun, but not very competitive in multiplayer, and not very effective in high level single player.

The ToA is not that awesome either, but one time I did play as Carthage and had the great lighthouse as well. I was running 15 cities without courthouses in the classical era.