Clarification on Peace Treaties

[BasketCase]

Here's the situation. Playing as Celts, emperor diff, small map, random settings (I got basically what looks like a medium-age island map). Very early in the game, Spain declares war. This was entertaining actually, because Spain was on a nearby island, had no navy, and therefore couldn't actually hit me with anything.

I make peace in exchange for appropriate tribute, plus a litle grovelling on Isabella's part. The 20 turn Peace Treaty starts.

Here's where I run into a problem. I wanted to capture a Spanish city, because it had a harbor and was right next to wines. Easy luxury for me. So I specifically waited until AFTER the 20 turns was up before I declared war, with all of my units OUTSIDE Spanish territory.

I still took a rep hit. Okay, I'm not 100% certain of this, but it sure looks like I took a rep hit, because no other civ on the map will trade GPT with me, in either direction, under any circumstances. If I offer GPT or ask for GPT in any deal, the deal is ALWAYS refused.

Where the heck did the rep hit come from?? Do I need to go into the diplomacy window and "renegotiate peace" in order to declare war without technically violating a peace treaty whose 20 turn timer has expired???

 

[stachnie]

If one of parts of the peace treaty was some GPT, after 20 turns you sholuld have seen her offer to redeclare peace treaty but without any GPT. In such case if you want to redeclare war you should refuse, otherwise you should wait next 20 turns.


Best regards,

Slawomir Stachniewicz.

P.S. I am sorry for possible grammar mistakes.

 

[Puppeteer]

Holy moley you have a lot of posts in a few short months. I was going to offer that perhaps the other civs don't have gpt available to trade, but with that many posts I'm wondering if that's a "duh I thought of that" for you. As I said in another thread recently my theory is that the AI won't eat away their bank in gpt and whenever the trade advisor says they would "never accept such a deal" that they simply don't have gpt to trade. Either that or I'm taking rep hits in every freakin' game.

 

[Zelda's Man]

I'm with puppeteer that the AI probably doesn't have any extra cash (probably spending it all on research).

As long as the gpt deal was cancelled prior to declaring war, then there would be no rep hit. Also make sure that no other deal you made was broken because of the war, ie no trade routes blocked by Spain.

Also make sure you have (+) gpt or they will not accept your gpt even if you have a large treasury.

 

[ybbor]

did you have any active deals? or does thier terriotry cut you off from another civ you were trading a resource to?

@the last 2 posters: they still would have accepted gpt

 

[rysingsun]

my guess is that you actually broke a treaty of one sort or another. after the 20 turns is expired check the "active" section of your trade screen. i say this because even though i have in the options section the box checked off that says "automatically renegotiate treaties" i notice that some agreements that have the number counted down to zero still dont expire without me proactively renegotiating them. this is particularly common with right of passage for example.

yes i know your wasnt a rop issue but just a plain old peace treaty. but if you have a save of the game on that turn or the turn before it might be interesting to see whether you may have inadverdantly broken an active treatment with them.

 

[Percy]

did you have any active deals? or does thier terriotry cut you off from another civ you were trading a resource to?

@the last 2 posters: they still would have accepted gpt

wrong, they will never accept you giving them GPT if you don't have the matching amount of positive income at the moment of the deal. so if you have a large treasury and are planning to run a deficit for a period of time, just temporarily go to the F1 screen, make so that you gain the +GPT needed, do the trade, and then go to F1 again to adjust it to your taste.

 

[BasketCase]

Nuts. The only save I would have would be the autosave that got overwritten 40 turns ago.

AFAIK I didn't have anything running with Spain except the peace treaty itself.

What this game really needs? For an advisor to pop up during diplomacy and warn you if you're about to do something that causes a rep hit. The way it is now, you never REALLY know what the key factors are.

 

[SJ Frank]

Did you have ANY trade running at the time of declaration of war? Were you exporting any hard goods, or were you paying gpt to any other civs?

 

[Drugged_Unholy]

I thought you had a rep hit simply for declaring war.

 

[Grille]

Nuts. The only save I would have would be the autosave that got overwritten 40 turns ago.

AFAIK I didn't have anything running with Spain except the peace treaty itself.

What this game really needs? For an advisor to pop up during diplomacy and warn you if you're about to do something that causes a rep hit. The way it is now, you never REALLY know what the key factors are.

Well, hard to tell.

To detect a rep hit, try this:
Be sure to have at least +1gpt income.
Make diplo with a civ, put your 1gpt for their 1g lump sum on the table, look at your advisor. If the advisor says 'acceptable', you don't have a rep hit (or the civ in question is not aware of your rep hit); if the advisor's statement is negative, you certainly have a rep hit. But click anyways on 'would you accept'. The foreign leader will then tell you that you trashed your rep, possibly he says 'you betrayed us with such proposal before' or he says 'we know what you did to CivX' (>you know at least the civ involved within the rep scandal).
If you have isolated that civ, you reflect upon any possible former trades with that civ. As ybbor indicated, did you deliver a resource on a trade route that crossed your rival's territory? (>in case of war, route gets blocked for any deliveries from your side crossing their territory and you're the one to blame!)
Furthermore, a rival ship could blocked the route or you just lost your access to the resource in question for a variety of reasons (e.g. a road pillaged by barbs, foreign border expansions, resource depletion... whatever)

Other than that:
You mentioned you had a peace deal before. What was the tribute you got from them for peace? Like stachnie said, if you accepted or gave gpt within that peace treaty, the other civ will automatically ask for a new peace deal after 20 turns during their turn. If you accept, the new peace deal will last another 20 turns.
If you deny, you will declare war; since it's their turn, it *may* be hard to tell if you had units in their actual territory. Also, if you deny, but had signed another separate deal after the first peace deal had been put up, you will of course break it (you declare, you're to blame).


I haven't had the slightest hint so far that getting a war declaration would lead to a rep hit (counting out collateral deal breakings as mentioned above).
Plus, declaring war yourself 'honorably' (=no direct or indirect deal breaking, no troops on enemy turf) never ever trashes your rep.
I'm eagerly waiting for an opposite example - just post the saves before and after war broke out.

 

[xiaoafei]

In vanilla civ3, reputation doesn't matter at all. Just break any treaty as one likes. to wait for 20 turns to save reputation is unacceptable. the worst thing could happen when we have a bad reputation is just no AI will accept OUR gpt offers. AI can still offer gpt to us. But I can not think of any situation that i have to offer gpt for anything. I always have enough money so that i can buy anything immediately. Further more, in those special treaties, e.g., peace treaties, i can still offer gpt in exchange of enemy cities. Of course, next turn (or maybe several turns later), the treaty will become history and i need not to pay this gpt anymore. Well, my reputation must be notorious at that time. but then what?
the latest example just happened last night, when i played a deity game. when i signed a peace treaty with England, i offered 200gpt for two cities ( one had the only iron on our land; one had saltpete that i wanted). 4 turns later, after i bought enough defence force for each new city, i broke the peace treaty. so, 800 gold for 2 important cities, wasn't that a reasonable deal? (Well, actually, i had enough money to keep my reputation at that time. more than 10,000 pieces of gold in my pocket with a income of 700+gpt. But i just didn't think i need any reputation. haha)

 

[BasketCase]

Couple more notes: there's a chance my trade with Russia might have been blocked because the harbor-to-harbor trade line might have crossed through Spanish waters, but I don't remember. However, my peace treaty with Spain did not have GPT in it--it was just straight-up peace.

 

[wit>trope]

A neat trick you can do to get the AI to accept gpt from you when you are running a deficit is to when trading click on the foreign advisor head ... this will bring you to the advisor screens. Now click on your domestic advisor and change your luxury or science sliders so that you have have positive gpt, enough to make the trade. Then go back to the diplomacy screen by just exiting and you'll be able to trade with them now. And then when you first get the chance (you can do this on the same turn) you can just go back to the domestic advisor and reset your science or luxury to what you want it to be with the deficit spending.

Do you think this is an exploit?

 

[plarq]

nope.Even you change all citizens to taxmen,and trade,it's still legal.By RBCiv or LK rules: only huge deficit(e.g. -100gpt or more) is illegal.
Rep can be hit when the civ cut off trad route.Or by entering enemy territory before declaring.