Classic GOTM 32: Spoiler 2 (end of middle ages)

[maharaja]

Forgive me if this is a basic question, but how do you know the number of tiles occupied by every civ ?

I also have the same question. How can we get this information?

 

[a space oddity]

You can count, can't you..? Just do ctrl-G for the grid and away you go!



Or you could use mapstat or Dianthus tool (see his sig). You should realise that you may only use it if you have full view of the map.

 

[samildanach]

Predator 1.27f
Stayed in Monarchy throughout the game. Entered the MA earlyish in the new millenium. Order of business was to finish off the Iroquois with my swords and build up a force of horsemen for upgrade to knights.
Had been trying to find the other continent throughout the AA without success. One finally made it around 300AD - I got all the first teir techs from the GL and then I got theology ( I used my saved GL to rush the sistine chapel) and chivalry the next turn.
At this point I only had eight horsemen constructed. I had another 6 under construction which got switched to knights. I couldn't be bothered to disconnect my iron supplies so just waited for them to come in. Thinking 14 knights would be enough to deal with the yanks. The conquest of america went swimmingly enough to start off with 3 american cities falling easily. This changed when I got to Washington where I lost eight knights taking the city. I actually change a couple of builds back to knights from cathedrals as the americans swarmed over Washington trying to take it back. I managed to hold out against the american counter attack and signed a peace deal in exchange for two more of their cities. In the meantime my swords put the finishing touches to the Iroquios - I got one flip - which meant that one group of swords had to be redirected back North to retake it after they had been given hastily written orders to get down south as quickly as possible.
After this I just waited for Military tradition to roll in. I hand built copernicus at some point. Built cathedrals,knights and galleys/caravels. I went after the americans as soon as MT came in. I got two GLs in one turn towards the end of that war one of which I used to rush magellans and the other I used to rush Bachs. Amusingly, I was investigating the capitals of the foreign powers on the other continent and found that the Germans were only one turn away from building bachs, it was with great pleasure that I rushed that wonder.
I looked at the land on the new continent and decided to go for the spanish first, even though they were perhaps the strongest, with eight musketmen in their capital. I set off with 30 cavs,( caravels were limiting), signed an ROP with Russia. Landed them on the Russian side of the border with spain.
In what was perhaps a first for me, the AI actually seemed to guess what was coming and spain decalred war on me and attacked my stack in russian territory. They killed one of my cavs with one of their cavs and injured a few other of my boys with knights and such. While planning the invasion of spain I noticed that what seemed to be their only saltpeter was next to the russian border. This got cut straight away, it didn't seem to have much effect as my cavs had to wade through a sea of spanish musketmen but I only saw one more enemy cav. I signed peace with the spanish in around 1150 AD - leaving them with one city on an island.
My next target was korea as their cities were still defended by pikes ( lots of them though ) and they had enough territory to take me over domination. I took four of their cities, it was slow going though as they had alot of defenders and the koreans were throwing the knights and MI around. At 1265 the whole world entered the Industrial Age ( apart from me) . This caused me a bit of a sweat waiting to find if everyone suddenly had riflemen. The koreans did not . I took the remaining Korean cities built libraries, temples and the heroic epic in them and waited for my cultural borders to expand which they duly did in 1295 AD giving me a domination victory.

 

[denyd]

A Space Oddity: You can count, can't you..? Just do ctrl-G for the grid and away you go!

You are one sick lady

 

[a space oddity]

Tnx DenyD, you're very nice too, leaving out the smileys.

 

[denyd]

Space: Glad to see you appreciate my warped sense of humor
We'll need to get into another SG someday soon. I hope you enjoyed your Minister of Happiness position on Montezuma's cabinet.

thebrose: If you're into the Industrial Age, fighting a war over saltpeter, would be like the US & Canada fighting a war over horses today

samilandich: Great finish time

 

[SirPleb]

1.27 Always War, going for Diplomatic win.

Link to Ancient Age spoiler

Taking Over the Continent

Immediately after I entered the Middle Ages there was a barbarian uprising in 170AD. This gave me a good clue about the state of the five Civs I hadn't met yet - one of those Civs must be in the Middle Ages. The barbarians weren't a problem though I found later on that the southwest jungle was infested with them.

At the start of the Middle Ages I left some horsemen in the north to finish off each Iroquois town as soon it grew in population or culture:


The rest of my horsemen began pressing into America. Early in that fighting I encountered an army of swordsmen at 230AD. That was a surprise - I hadn't seen America produce a leader. Not a big problem though. I rushed some catapults and then destroyed the army without much difficulty.

I debated whether to pause and wait for Knights. My horseman losses were high - I was losing about as many as I was producing. I decided to carry on with horsemen. They'd be able to do the job and I didn't want to lose four turns (toward my eventual UN goal) researching an optional tech.

In 380AD I took America's iron. It was a safe bet things would get easier after that. No more swordsmen.

In 430AD I got my 4th leader and he rushed Sun Tzu's.

In 440AD I took Miami from America and inherited a barbarian problem from them. I hadn't realized before this how the jungle lands might be connected. There were a lot of barbarians in that jungle, many of them probably left over from the uprising. They seemed more inclined to trickle out of the jungle at the south end than the north.



In 480AD I got my 5th leader, used him for army, and flipped a wonder prebuild to Heroic Epic.

In 540AD I got Chivalry from the Great Library. Started upgrading elite* and veteran Horsemen to Knights, but kept my elite Horsemen.

In 550AD I got my 6th leader and he rushed Leonardo's. In 600AD I got my 7th leader and saved him - he ended up rushing Copernicus' in 730AD.

In 620AD I finished my upgrades and had 26 Knights. I'd pretty much finished off America at this time, I was just waiting for towns to grow before capturing them.

In 650AD I finally finished off the Iroquois.

There were four American towns left at this time. It occured to me that as a religious Civ I could afford to switch to Republic to gain its benefits for a while. I'd have to eliminate America first - war weariness from my long war with her would be substantial in Republic. But there wouldn't be any war weariness from the remote Civs for a long time. Our interaction would be minimal until boats could easily cross the oceans. If/when I got war weariness and couldn't handle it in Republic I could quickly flip back to Monarchy.

The remote Civs would not be able to contact America for a long time yet. I could safely raze the remaining American towns instead of waiting (probably 40 turns) to capture them all. So that's what I did, eliminating America in 680AD. At that point I had 28 Knights, many of them elite.

I immediately revolted and became a Republic in 690AD. I was pleasantly surprised to discover that we're playing with the Conquests unit support cost rules - I had 54 units and didn't have to pay their support, was allowed 62 free units.

It took quite a while to fill in the home continent and to clear jungles. For much of the Middle Ages I farmed barbarian camps in the jungle which added a significant amount of gold to my treasury. Eventually I would settle all that land of course. When I entered the Industrial Age in 970AD my world map looked like this:



Meeting the Remote Civs

When I had America well under control I diverted some effort to building suicide galleys.

In 440AD I made contact with Rome. I immediately traded for contacts, maps, Republic, Monotheism, and Theology. (I could have just waited for techs from the Great Library but I wanted to check whether anyone knew Education, and if so to trade for any tech known to just one Civ while I could.) And then I declared war on all five remote Civs.

I realized when I did this that I'd just given those Civs a present I hadn't intended. They'd all have reverse war weariness for a long time to come. There would be no way to cancel the reverse ww until we could cross the oceans and fight. Oh well, I'd probably have made contact this early even if I'd thought of that in advance. I gained some tech and a lot of knowledge of the world.

I ambitiously (way too ambitious in hindsight ) considered who I might invade on the other continent after finishing at home. I really wanted to claim some luxuries on the other continent. The four homeland luxuries weren't enough. Just two more would add six happy faces per city, a big boost. I wanted a clean invasion which would allow me to wipe out one Civ entirely. Taking out one Civ would leave four rivals and that would mean I'd only need two votes in the UN at the end. Vs. needing 3 votes at the end if all five rivals remained in the game. I tentatively selected Spain as the best choice because of geography and her two luxuries.

Research

I expected it to be an ongoing challenge to maintain a fast research pace. I was in Monarchy, couldn't trade, and had to divert some income to luxuries. So whenever I could spare production I built courthouses, libraries, and later on universities. And I went for the science wonders, Copernicus' and Newton's, both in my highest science city. Copernicus' was rushed by a leader in 730AD, Newton's was built by the city later on.

After entering the Middle Ages I researched Feudalism in 7 turns, Engineering in 8, and Invention in 9. At first contact with the other continent I traded for Republic, Monotheism, and Theology.

I then slowed research for a while because I urgently needed gold for some rushing and upgrades to Knights. (Got Chivalry from the Great Library.)

Eventually I learned Gunpowder in 15 turns, then Chemistry in 7, and Education from the Great Library.

At this point I switched to Republic - between that and building some Universities I was able to increase the pace. Astronomy in 5 turns, then Banking, Metallurgy, Military Tradition, Physics, Theory of Gravity, and Magnetism each in 4 turns.

And thus I entered the Industrial Age in 970AD. At this point I was well ahead of the remote Civs - the most advanced of them, Germany, Korea, and Spain, didn't know Physics yet and were still three techs from finishing the Middle Ages.

I had invested four turns in one optional Middle Ages tech - Military Tradition. It seemed important to have Cavalry for more effective defense of my shores from the coming invaders. And assuming I'd be invading the other continent, I'd of course want Cavalry for that.

I didn't go for any other optional tech and thus couldn't go for two of my favorite wonders - JS Bach's and Smith's. I didn't think that either of them would pay back the lost turns toward a UN victory.

Skirmishes late in the Middle Ages

After taking control of the continent and becoming a Republic in 690AD most of my production went to filling in the continent but some also went to producing troops. Initially my troops wouldn't have had a chance of defending the entire coastline. Fortunately it would take some time before the other Civs could reach me.

In 910AD the first ships came into sight along my coastline, a couple of Spanish vessels. In 940AD the first invaders landed - 2 Korean MIs and a settler in "my" jungle. I hadn't finished settling the continent and the other Civs clearly knew that through some arcane magic After that a steady stream began to arrive - Spain, then Germany, and then Russia. Rome didn't seem to be strong enough to join the party. I didn't have quite enough defenders and Spain managed to settle a town. Aside from that this first trickle of invaders wasn't a problem.

I was nowhere near ready to consider an invasion of the other continent though. As the Middle Ages came to an end I needed all production at home.

 

[thebrose]

thebrose: If you're into the Industrial Age, fighting a war over saltpeter, would be like the US & Canada fighting a war over horses today

thanks for the advice. I have always been a little slow at some things
i think i'll be in the running for another lowest scoring victory if i can pull another one out of my .....

 

[Dianthus]

You can count, can't you..? Just do ctrl-G for the grid and away you go!

You're a tease space .

Or you could use mapstat or Dianthus tool (see his sig). You should realise that you may only use it if you have full view of the map.

Well, here's a handy sig for you. Note that the current version of CRpMapStat is safe to use right from the beggining, it only counts visible tiles.

 

[maharaja]

I want to do military aliiances or ROP with some another civ. but I don't get any option. Is there any particular tech I need to research to get that option avaiable. Not sure if answer of this question allowed here but still asking atleast if I can get with some hint.

 

[Karasu]

My second and last spoiler for GOTM32 (Civ 1.29f, Open)
No pictures, sorry about that...

The Ancient Age

A few turns into the Middle Ages I managed to trade Monarchy (on which I still had a monopoly) to Russia for Republic and Monotheism.
In 90 BC I revolted to Republic, never to leave it.

That trading round was also a good moment to start some wars in the other continent, to prevent the other civs from speeding up the tech pace too much. I was in fact starting to hope that I wouldn't need to use Cavalries at all...

Germany was the strongest there, so I declared war on them and allied with Russia.
A little later on, I also declared on Korea and allied with Rome.
I had not enough money to do anything else, but the Spanish should have started to worry

In 30 BC I saw signs of the massive barbarian uprising. They all came from the jungle area to the west, and I decided that I wouldn't defend those cities, since I was already spending all my money on whiskey and beer... ehm, no, on temples and libraries.

In 130 AD I made peace with America for two cities, leaving them with only two more in the southeastern peninsula.
I went on developing that area and finally jumped the Palace to Washington (280 AD).
I realize now that the limited core in the starting area was really crippling my expansion, so I should have made the palace jump a higher priority -the way I did it in the game was most probably very late.

Anyway... I waited for the 20 turns to expire before attacking again a wandering American Archer with two Jaguars and start the Golden Age -I felt that I could use those turns to keep on improving.

So, a consequence of the late palace jump was a relatively late Golden Age, which in turn meant that quite a lot of the culture buildings rushed thanks to the extra income would benefit very little of the 1000-year doubling.
On the bright side, I managed to upgrade enough horses to Knights to dispose relatively quickly of the Iroquois, and the AI in the other continent was so busy fighting one another that I needed not worry much about research.

More in detail:
390 AD - new war with America, wiped in 440 AD. No, they respawned in the jungle area! Or was it a settler on a boat. Well, it doesn't matter anyhow. America is for all purposes out of the game
470 AD - Declare on Iroquois.
610 AD - Capture Salamanca and get the first GL of the game. I used it to rush Sistine Chapel there, with the idea of immediately growing culture and borders in the area, and increase happiness for score.
Thinking back of the thing, I should probably have abandonend Tlatelolco and rebuilt the FP in Salamanca, even though all culture buildings had not been completed in the old core.
680 AD - Iroquois are gone.

I devoted the remaining turns to complete a dense settling of the home continent. It turned out that it would give about 50% of the total land area, so I started looking at the weaker nations on the other continent -Korea and Rome mainly, who were lagging behind in tech and had no access to Horses nor Iron.
I started slowly preparing a few Knights and Galleys for the invasion, even though there seemed to be no sea route that didn't require Navigation -even with the Great Lighthouse.

So, assuming I would not need to research Military Tradition, I concentrated on the techs that would lead me to Navigation. This also had the advantage that some Great Wonders would be avaliable to (slightly) increase culture.
I decided however that money was better used to rush culture buildings, so the research funding was always kept on the lower side util the end of the game.

In 970 AD I invaded the island east of the other continent.
I needed to declare war to Korea, Rome, Spain and Germany to complete its capture, but I managed to make peace with Germany and Rome almost immediately and start a dogpile on Spain, that had become the leader there in the meantime.
With the other ones busy, I completed the conquest of continental Korea -a smallish strip of land between Germany and Russia- by 1260 AD.

This war got me the second leader, which I used (this time) to rush the FP in Salamanca (1130 AD). This allowed the cities in the new core to build Libraries, Cathedrals etc. on their own while I was busy rushing buildings elsewhere.

In 1370 AD I declared war on Rome to keep on expanding and having a few more new cities with Temples to rush. This war lazily dragged on till the end of the game, when romans too were eliminated.

I continuously kept on founding new cities throughout the entire game (I founded "New Tenochtitlan 2" in 1350 AD...) -actually, reviewing them was quite time-consuming...

The rest of the turns were pretty uneventful -Germany and Spain kept on signing peace treaties, and I kept on allying with Germany to keep them busy until Spain was eliminated a few turns before the end.
Russia slowly declined, and I kept on building and building until 100000 culture points were reached in 1545 AD.

Actually, I noted down the evolution of culture points:
10 BC: 1623
50 AD: 1789
110 AD: 1976
280 AD: 2743
300 AD: 2903 (+80 cpt)
350 AD: 3339 (+90)
390 AD: 3715 - beginning of Golden Age
450 AD: 4437 (+ 135)
530 AD: 5852 (+200)
660 AD: 9257 (+307)
800 AD: 14284 (+395)
980 AD: 22574 (+507)
1040 AD: 25792 (+560)
1100 AD: 29332 (+613)
1110 AD: 29952 (+620) Here I was researching Economics, aiming at Adam Smith to increase the gpt
1130 AD: 31212 (+634) Move FP to Salamanca
1140 AD: 31833 (+621) having lost 18 gpt from Tlatelolco
1160 AD: 33087 (+633) The effect of the new core
1170 AD: 33726 (+639)
1250 AD: 39225 (+723)
1275 AD: 42965 (+767)
1300 AD: 46971 (+825)
1325 AD: 51267 (+886)
1350 AD: 55866 (+933)
1375 AD: 60707 (+988)
1400 AD: 65799 (+1037)
1425 AD: 71192 (+1097)
1455 AD: 78039 (+1180) Missed 1450
1475 AD: 82858 (+1225)
1480 AD: 84095 (+1237)
1500 AD: 89195 (+1290)
1525 AD: 95821 (+1354)
1540 AD: 99967 (+1393) this hurts! Loose one turn for 33 points out of 100000...

1545 AD: 101383 (+1416), 6222 Firaxis points


A couple of final notes...
- I think that multiple Palace/FP movements do benefit a 100k game. The idea is of course that a production core gives money and shields, but when you finish building Universities, you are basicly wasting the shields, and the only cpt increase that you can get at that point comes from the buildings you can rush elsewhere.
Moving the production core will restore a situation in which you have culture buildings being produces in high-shield cities, and money to rush in the corrupt ones.

- I am still convinced that a more focus approach would have lead me to move the palace to Washington earlier, and start the Golden Age earlier.
This would have allowed, other factors being the same, to begin the phase of massive culture building around 200AD, with a higher cpt increase around 1200 AD and thus an earlier finish date.
Actually, I suspect that in this kind of game one should aim at being in that situation around 100 - 300 AD: the 1000-year doubling will therefore start to give its benefits around 1100 - 1300 AD, which is in line with the best 100k dates I have seen in this forum (and which I never managed to reach, btw).

- Oh, I forgot.
The game never reached the Industrial Ages. This gave me something to think about... Railroads would have certainly helped earn more money, but I would need to invest quite a lot in research and the culture buildup would have proceeded at a much slower pace.
In this game, I slowed down research and used all the money to rush building, which is very close to the other extreme. Now, I wish I could manage to do both things the way the best players do... but as things are, where will the best compromise be?

 

[Dianthus]

I want to do military aliiances or ROP with some another civ. but I don't get any option. Is there any particular tech I need to research to get that option avaiable. Not sure if answer of this question allowed here but still asking atleast if I can get with some hint.

Have you built an embassy with the Civ you want to make the alliance/ROP deal?

Oh, and you're right, this isn't really the place . General Civ questions like this are better suited the Quick Answers thread.

 

[maharaja]

No I didn't. Thanks Dianthus, I believe I should make it to get MA/ROP.

 

[jazz_man]

hi!

it is 1430ad and my continent is finally settled sufficiently to pull the plug on the barbarians - puh!

i've had quite a bit of fighting with the Iroquois, and came behind in the science race. after beating the iroquois and finding the other continent i spent all my gold to buy science.

the americans are still alive because i think they're less of a pain than the barbarians when i can't keep up settling the land! now is probably the time to mop them up to though i think their land is pretty useless.

tried to use catapults a lot for the first time and found it disappointing. had 7 in a pile that warmed up city defenders round after round and most missed! it got better when they turned into cannons though so i suppose payback will come.

picture of my standing is attached.
cheers,
john

 

[scoutsout]

Well I finally finished my Game Of The Fortnight. This is an "endgame" post for me, because nobody made it out of the middle ages in this one. :devil2:

This marks the second time I've used Dianthus' MapStat utility in a _OTM, and the second time it came in really handy.

I used the basic warrior-to-sword upgrade gambit in the early game. The Jag Warriors made it easy to assemble rather quickly. My Iroquois war lasted from 30 BC to 380 AD, with a concurrent war with America running from 320 AD to 830 AD. I used Medeival Infantry extensively in the American campaign.



I acutally bypassed Chivalry initially, and made a bee-line for Navigation so that I could sail the high seas. (I later traded Education for it) In 960 AD I organized a little dogpile on russia. This turned out to be a faux pas, as I was only able to take 2 Russian cities (from Russia). Others were taken by Spain or Rome... I also lost a 2-Knight Army to a single pikeman in the initial assault on Kiev. At least they died honorably, and not in some stupid flip. I eventually raised 2 more Knight armies... proper 3-horse ones.



So, when Spain ended our Military Alliance early (by taking the last Russian city) I decided to give Lizzy a little "hit" to go along with the Rep hit. The Medieval Infantry that I brough from home were pretty much ripped to pieces by the Conquistadors, even in rough terrain. That wasn't so bad, because by this point her GA was coming to and end, and I had a steady stream of Knights coming from the homeland.

The moment of truth was recognized by Dianthus' MapStat. In 1345 Spain was gone, and Korea had been reduced to a single city. I was marshalling Cavalry for what I thought would be a brutal blitz to capture 4 or 5 Roman cities, when I got the little from MapStat.



I was 15 tiles from domination, with a border expansion due next turn in Pyonyang. I had enough Cavalry in position to snag 2 Roman cities. Ceasar countered in earnest, but the game was over the next turn.

Domination victory in 1350, with Firaxis/Jason scores of 5,194/8,684.

Thanks again, Dianthus!

 

[Ronald]

1.27f

After I reached the middle ages in 290 BC, I immediately brought all 3 scientific civs on the other continent (Germany, Russia and Korea) into the middle ages as well. I could trade all three starting techs and began to research invention.
This I believe is the most important trade for an early space race. In the beginning of the middle ages, it takes quite long to research, this trade was worth about 30 to 40 turns.

Since I brought other civs into a new age, I had to cope first with a massive barbarian uprising. When I was newer to civ3, I was afraid of this moment, but I have learned to deal with it. You probably know it as well, but for anybody who does not and wants to know, it is quite simple:
First, you must get rid of all your cash. Either buy things (at this moment it is most of the time wise to get marketplaces and maybe libraries) or give a loan to other civs.
Second, found an undefended city close to the barbarians, they will all move into this city, but since it is undefended, has no improvements and you have no cash, there is no harm done. As quickly as the came as quickly they are gone.

The other important issue I learned for quick tech pace is to limit your initial military. I tended to build large numbers of warriors early on, upgrade them to swordsmen or medival infantry, but the costs under republic limited my ability to put enough resources into research. This game I watched my units more closely and I also built a lot of otherwise useless cities in the jungle to be able to support more units.



Despite this, my support costs went up to 54gpt when I started my first war against America. But as the war progressed, it came down fast. The war started in 90 AD. With a victory of one of my jag warriors, I also started my golden age.
This war gave me my first GL and I built my FP in Atzcalpotzcalco near Washington.
At 420 AD, the first war against America was over, I researched military tradition and started the war against Iroquois in 460 AD:



The war was over in 630 AD and I had my continent for myself. I got a second GL and after having Newtons university handbuilt in Xochicalco I now rushed Copernicus in the same city to get an excellent science producer (in 650 AD it produced already 80 beakers even without university.)



Finally in 710 AD I entered the industrial age.

 

[Dynamic]

After entering in MA I decided to research Navigation as fast as possible. I didn’t build the suicide galleys; I need Navigation not only for safely traverse ocean squares but for luxury trading. Under republic I need more luxury for happiness of my people.
I put off my war against Americans because it may slow down my research.
But in 210BC I collect 20 horsemen and go into Americans territory. After capturing one half of Americans cities I make peace with them and decide waiting Chivalry. I hadn’t GL from this war. Before this I thought rush new place on the Americans territory by GL, I don’t want abandon my capital.
In 30BC I discovered Navigation and started exploring the world. In 50AD I met Rome and get World Map and all contacts. I trade 2 luxuries from Spain and can set my luxury rate at 0! After discovering Chivalry and Engineering I stopped my research and set tax rate at 100%. At this moment I decide go to domination and begin choosing the opponents. On my own continent stay 6 Americans cities, but the main force I move to the Rome & Russian. I started war against Rome in 310AD, killed American in 360AD . 300AD – 450AD I sent settlers to cover unclaimed territory of my home land and built temples. This wars proceed by ~40-50 knights.
370AD started war against Russian. They have Feudalism but haven’t pikemans. I ended up Rome in 390AD, Russian in 410AD but at this date Germans sneak attack me! I don’t want this war because Germans have a stack of 10 swords and 5 archers near my city while I already moved my force to Korea. My last 3 knights in this region captured Leipzig and Germans turn his forces around. While Germans march back to Leipzig I return my force and get a big battle under Leipzig. After this the Germans force was break and I captured next 3 cities. At this time other part of my knights (from Russian) round up some Koreans cities and in 460AD took them.
In 470AD most of old Romans and Russians cities expand his borders and I have achieved Domination victory.

 

[Ronald]

.
In 30BC I discovered Navigation and started exploring the world.

Wow, I thought my tech pace was relatively quick, but navigation in 30 BC, how did you manage that?

great game

Ronald

 

[Dynamic]

Wow, I thought my tech pace was relatively quick, but navigation in 30 BC, how did you manage that?

great game

Ronald

I have the early GL from Iroqious war and rush FP. But due to fast research I had to make peace with Americans and build not my army.

 

[anarchywrksbest]

100BC, no more Iroquious. Now onto America with a swordsman army and lots of elite horses.