Classical Golden Age is too difficult

[Disgustipated]

So for those of you who get classical golden ages, what bonus do you choose? I wasn't generating enough faith for monumentality so I chose the research one. Honestly I don't know why anyone would want a classical golden age. Luckily I was able to get a medieval golden age after that, but went normal age after that.

getting that almost mythical classical dark age is rather difficult

I'm not a big fan of this either. At least if I plan on conquering something. It's a huge hassle to conquer any cities when in a dark age.

 

[Leyrann]

This. If you are playing higher levels you can't really complain about not getting golden ages in classical. At Prince level it's fairly easy, but gets gradually more difficult the higher level you go. I always find it strange people playing higher levels complaining about the difficulty of things. It's supposed to be that way. Now if it's too difficult to get a classical golden age on Prince difficulty, then I might agree we have a problem.

Nothing in my game would have been different if my difficulty level had been lower. I wasn't set back by barbarians, I wasn't set back by the AI. Those are the only things affected by difficulty.

-Going with 1-2 scouts early, you get 1 point for each hut you open. If you get a nice stretch of map, it's not unreasonable to get 4-5 score from them alone, never mind potentially more scouting leading you to meeting more civs

Started with a scout, explored as much as I could. I've played this game before. Didn't go for a second scout because I also used my warrior to explore and wanted to go for a religion (goal was trying to pursue all five victory types in the same game, but I didn't pick the game up again after missing up on the golden age).

-Killing a barb camp gives 1 point, but killing one near your city is worth 3.

I destroyed all barbarian camps I discovered. Which was just one. Also, it's two points, not one.

-While I rarely have time to get Amani twice to city-states in the ancient era, planned right you can get 2 points there.

I could maybe have gotten two more era points here by sending my Mysticism envoy to the other city state and moving Amani around. However, I don't remember if I even knew the second city state already by the point where I was focusing on getting suzerainity of the first (for which I did not need Amani because of the convenient quest).

-City-building can give you multiple extra score. Settling on desert or tundra, settling near floodplains or a volcano, and you can often get an extra point or two. You also get a point for "rebuilding after a disaster", so settling near a floodplain and having it flood early might be worth farming one of those tiles for that score

Got the tundra and floodplains score, couldn't get the desert or volcano score with my map.

-That's not even factoring in using iron or horses or building a ship, or if you get that early scout and can get more points from getting an early pantheon

Had no iron or horses (only one iron tile in the third ring of a city, but hey, I'm the Romans, which in this case makes it harder). I rushed for Pantheon as fast as I could.

So basically, to me where OP went "slow" was targeting the wrong barb camps to hunt down, and not scouting enough.

You are making baseless (and incorrect) assumptions about my game and playstyle. I know how to play this game. I could quite possibly win 100% of games on Deity if I felt like it. I play on Emperor because I don't want to be forced into playing optimally, but I do know how to do it. I've scouted as much as possible and I've targeted barbarian camps as quickly as possible. Of which there was only one, as already said.

 

[Victoria]

There were no tribal villages around. There were no barbarian encampments to take.

Had no iron or horses

I like to play to opportunities that present themselves

just sounds like the opportunity was not there and what you are saying is you want it to be there every game even if it is not a historical time for your civ. Fair enough, just not a popular view.

 

[lotrmith]

Nothing in my game would have been different if my difficulty level had been lower. I wasn't set back by barbarians, I wasn't set back by the AI. Those are the only things affected by difficulty.

Of course you were set back by the AI. Each AI starting with multiple warriors and settlers is going to explore faster, clearing more barbs and goodie huts and first-discovering more wonders... all era score opportunities that you will miss out on because they got taken from you. Then of course the AI has significant production and research boosts on top of free starting techs, so they will beat you to world-first era scores for things like boats, horses, iron, and world wonders... again points you permanently miss out on.

Then also consider that due to the incresed speed with which the AIs fly through the tech and civics trees, the Eras themselves are shorter in length, giving you less time to gather the scores you need to break normal/golden thresholds.

Of course the higher difficulty changes your ability to reliably get golden ages. Don't be absurd.

 

[Leyrann]

Of course you were set back by the AI. Each AI starting with multiple warriors and settlers is going to explore faster, clearing more barbs and goodie huts and first-discovering more wonders... all era score opportunities that you will miss out on because they got taken from you. Then of course the AI has significant production and research boosts on top of free starting techs, so they will beat you to world-first era scores for things like boats, horses, iron, and world wonders... again points you permanently miss out on.

Then also consider that due to the incresed speed with which the AIs fly through the tech and civics trees, the Eras themselves are shorter in length, giving you less time to gather the scores you need to break normal/golden thresholds.

Of course the higher difficulty changes your ability to reliably get golden ages. Don't be absurd.

Nothing in my game would have been different if my difficulty level had been lower. There were no barbarian camps destroyed by the AI that I could have potentially gotten. I didn't lose goody huts to AIs. There just weren't any nearby. I didn't have any first in the world era score possibilities other than pantheon and religion, neither of which you can reliably get even against low level AIs. And classical era only started in turn 48, which is in fact later than I would expect. Often enough it's smack on turn 40 at Emperor.

Sure, it matters later on, but at this point in the game there hadn't been a difference.

 

[Minou]

After all this discussion I’d be interested to see the starting save (or map and seed number) just to try and get the Golden Age. It would not be a totally fair comparison since I’m a normal game you would have other priorities besides era score, but would love to try myself and see if it really is impossible in this map.

 

[MrRadar]

Well, sometimes it is just not in the stars. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it is not, no matter what. Can't get it whatever you do. So what?

I think the perceived "difficulty" of getting the Golden Classical highlights a different problem - all other Golden Ages are far too easy to get and even to chain a few of them in a row, so players somehow start to feel a bit robbed, if they aren't on that golden needle already since Classical.

The fact that I must actively avoid doing things towards the end of other eras far more often so as to minimize the overshoot, rather than actively try to reach that threshold is much more serious problem and brings more unwanted 'gameyness' than efforts to get Golden Classical. I must remember not to complete the circumnavigation for a few turns. I'm at war and have enough envoys to take over suzerainty of a couple of City states from my adversary, but I better wait some six turns. Whatever you do, DON'T build that plane, not just yet. Oh goddarn it, I forgot not to build my unique district/unit/improvement just now, arghh... Those all are unnatural and gamey elements affecting the gameplay itself and creating unnecessary trouble where it shouldn't be.

I'd really rather we had some sliding reference interval, where only your efforts over the last, let's say, 40 turns would be taken into account at any time.

 

[Victoria]

The fact that I must actively avoid doing things towards the end of other eras far more often so as to minimize the overshoot,

I tend not to bother, just lazy because I just want to play like @Leyrann , as in naturally, whatever that may mean. For me it is no micro.

 

[lotrmith]

Nothing in my game would have been different if my difficulty level had been lower. There were no barbarian camps destroyed by the AI that I could have potentially gotten. I didn't lose goody huts to AIs. There just weren't any nearby. I didn't have any first in the world era score possibilities other than pantheon and religion, neither of which you can reliably get even against low level AIs. And classical era only started in turn 48, which is in fact later than I would expect. Often enough it's smack on turn 40 at Emperor.

Sure, it matters later on, but at this point in the game there hadn't been a difference.

This is what's called denial. If you had 48 turns at Emperor before classical, you would 100% without exception had >48 turns at a lower difficulty. You could have had first boat, first use of horses, first use of iron, first to tech into the next era, first to adopt T1 government, etc.

You also have no idea whatsoever what huts or camps you may have missed out on... they could have been gone before you discovered them. Unless you're completely isolated from other civs, which you haven't claimed to be. 48 turns and you didn't explore enough to meet another civ, or you were on a solo continent/island, and you didn't build a boat? Even so, the City States you met could have cleared camps without your knowledge that you could have cleared sooner on a lower difficulty.

As has been said, you are of the opinion that you should have been given a classic golden as a civ without any ancient benefits and at a relatively high difficulty, and for the golden age to fall in your lap without any specific effort on your part. You are looking for affirmation. Unfortunately, everyone is of a different opinion... accept that and move on.

 

[konokono]

I must remember not to complete the circumnavigation for a few turns.

Lol, ive done this... wait a few turns until the new era to circumnavigate. Yeah, the gameyness of the era score system is a bit of a problem . Yes I can ignore it but not really coz I'm OCD about these things

 

[Minou]

Classical Dark Age is often harder than Golden Age - not hard to trigger at all but hard to do so without weakening your opening. Last game I had 10/11 era score and was avoiding exploration to stay under 4 more turns and some dumb city state Warrior walks out of the fog and says “check out our city, it’s right next to Mt Everest!”. There goes my Heroic Age......

 

[UWHabs]

Lol, ive done this... wait a few turns until the new era to circumnavigate. Yeah, the gameyness of the era score system is a bit of a problem . Yes I can ignore it but not really coz I'm OCD about these things

My last game as Kupe I definitely just let all my boats sit for like 3-4 turns waiting for the next era.

 

[Leyrann]

After all this discussion I’d be interested to see the starting save (or map and seed number) just to try and get the Golden Age. It would not be a totally fair comparison since I’m a normal game you would have other priorities besides era score, but would love to try myself and see if it really is impossible in this map.

I don't have any starting saves, and I believe you can't really reproduce the map (other than the same map seed) unless you perfectly copy all civilizations, while I don't even know many of them (only the ones I met).

Anyway, in hindsight from this thread, I probably could have done it if I had settled a coastal city and built a ship, but by the time I realized it was not going to be easy despite the 9 era score from the natural wonder, I had no time to do that anymore. The thing is that I normally don't do that either, yet I'm completely used to getting a normal era in classical. I thought, normal era + 9, arguably +11 considering I normally don't go for a religion nearly this early, that shouldn't be too hard. But the RNG with barbarian camps and tribal villages was just insanely bad. I don't think I've ever before had a game where I found zero tribal villages.

 

[Arent11]

I don't have any starting saves, and I believe you can't really reproduce the map (other than the same map seed) unless you perfectly copy all civilizations, while I don't even know many of them (only the ones I met).

Anyway, in hindsight from this thread, I probably could have done it if I had settled a coastal city and built a ship, but by the time I realized it was not going to be easy despite the 9 era score from the natural wonder, I had no time to do that anymore. The thing is that I normally don't do that either, yet I'm completely used to getting a normal era in classical. I thought, normal era + 9, arguably +11 considering I normally don't go for a religion nearly this early, that shouldn't be too hard. But the RNG with barbarian camps and tribal villages was just insanely bad. I don't think I've ever before had a game where I found zero tribal villages.

Do you want to pull off some kind of slingshot or do you just want that golden age for RPG reasons?

Maybe the incidence of golden/dark ages should be slightly randomized and not just according to exact numbers.

 

[UWHabs]

I don't have any starting saves, and I believe you can't really reproduce the map (other than the same map seed) unless you perfectly copy all civilizations, while I don't even know many of them (only the ones I met).

Anyway, in hindsight from this thread, I probably could have done it if I had settled a coastal city and built a ship, but by the time I realized it was not going to be easy despite the 9 era score from the natural wonder, I had no time to do that anymore. The thing is that I normally don't do that either, yet I'm completely used to getting a normal era in classical. I thought, normal era + 9, arguably +11 considering I normally don't go for a religion nearly this early, that shouldn't be too hard. But the RNG with barbarian camps and tribal villages was just insanely bad. I don't think I've ever before had a game where I found zero tribal villages.

Yeah, tribal RNG can be hugely different. I know sometimes it's not hard to get 4-5 villages early on, other times you get nothing. So that can be a big difference in era score, never mind the actual loot. I mean, if you find a village on turn 3 and pop a relic or +faith, even from era score alone, it means you might get the first pantheon (which iirc is +2 instead of the normal +1). Or the RNG from which city-states you meet can have a wildly different take on the game. If that first city-state next to you is a cultural or religious one, that can play very different to the game than a militaristic or industrious one. And due to the slingshot effect, changes can be big. Even just getting that culture a couple turns earlier means you can get the +1 production per city a couple turns sooner, which maybe lets you finish that holy site a turn sooner, which maybe lets you buy a prophet for the 2nd religion instead of the 3rd religion, for example, which is a better era score. And it's a real pain to miss by a couple points - I've definitely had more than 1 game where I get 1 point away from the golden age and there's literally nothing I can do for that extra point, so I end up rage-quitting.

 

[acluewithout]

I think the perceived "difficulty" of getting the Golden Classical highlights a different problem - all other Golden Ages are far too easy to get and even to chain a few of them in a row...

Classical Dark Age is often harder than Golden Age...

This and this.

Classical Ages can be hard to get if the stars aren't aligned, but I quite like that really. One part of that is deciding whether to grab Amani or not for the Suzerain boost, which impacts openings. But once you start getting GAs, it's usually pretty easy to keep them going which can feel a bit lame.

Getting Dark Ages I find quite hard, and it usually requires some anti-fun play - i.e. avoiding doing stuff that's fun.

Stepping back a bit, I feel like basically all the mechanics that came in Rise & Fall still need a bit of work (e.g. Era / Ages, Governors, Gov Plaza). The exception is maybe loyalty, which after a few tweaks[0] is one of the best mechanics to come out of Civ 6, and Emergencies which essentially got their tweak in GS.

I tend not to bother, just lazy because I just want to play like @Leyrann , as in naturally, whatever that may mean. For me it is no micro.

If I'm a bit far from getting a GA or want a Dark Age then I tend to not go after the easy Era Score, e.g. no Galley, maybe hold-off getting Suzerain or founding my Religion. In a pinch, I might also hold off the Era Score bump you get from your Tier 1 Government, but only by a few turns because that first Government is so important[1].

Other than that, I might hold off clearing a barb camp. That can actually be a fun little decision - I can hold off clearing the camp to save the Era score, but then I risk the camp spawning units (although, usually not really a problem because I'll station a unit to control scouts).

Other than that, no, I can't be bother micro-managing Era Score either.

[0] Linking loyalty to Religion was such a great change, as is linking Loyalty to Grievances. I know I've said this elsewhere too many times already, but I think the bit Loyalty is really missing is something akin to Ideological pressure from BNW. I also wish there were a few more ways Religion and Loyalty interacted, just something simple e.g. maybe some policy cards based around Holy Sites.

[1] I think Civ's Civics Tree has always been designed on the assumption you might delay getting your first tier government in favour of getting some of the early leaf techs or getting Theatre Squares etc first. I really like that dynamic. True, it basically always makes sense to just bee-line early Government, but just to change things up it can be fun delaying and prioritising other things. The fact that Era score is now part of the equation just makes that decision a tad more interesting, and I think is a good example of how FXS adding mechanics can sometimes help make the design of existing mechanics shine a bit more.

 

[Mahi]

I've seen a couple of "Worst start on deity" videoes on YouTube and realized these worst starts can be turned into "powerful" starts due to the very poor start that locks you into a dark age for the classical era but sets you off in a really good position to aquire Heroic Age in the Medieval Era.
EG. Player isolates himself on a very small island to start with, or forces himself only to settle his first city after turn 20 == Guaranteed dark age in the classical era

 

[Victoria]

the very poor start that locks you into a dark age

Also give you +5 combat if you get early horsemen and that can make a big difference.

 

[pkaem]

I didn't read it all, so maybe doubled advice. But if you go with two scouts, slot that survey card. Even wait with exploring wonders / huts if possible. Rank one or even Rank two scouts are way faster explorers than without promotions. Also check out if you can make use of early holy sitea and or earth godess to use that ga.

 

[Scaramanga]

Remind me to forward settle anyone who gets a dark age on purpose.