Collated list of remaining issues

[Pietato]

I think there's a few choices that need to be balanced so that each choice is at least roughly equal.

- Monumentality is going to be the best golden age to pick almost every time (out of 4 options)

- Intelligence agency is the best mid tier government building almost every time (out of 3 options)

- Work ethic is not QUITE as dominant, but it's still going to be the best out of 9 options probably 75% of the time

- I'm not sure if I want to say "the voidsingers are almost always the best option" or "the hermetics are almost always the worst option". I think the second statement is more true. Regardless, rebalance needed.

- Out of the 20 or whatever pantheons, you pretty much always want two or three of them... Earth Goddess, the free settler one... I understand some are more situational depending on what you have around, but even if my starting area has like 20 cows/sheep around, I'd still pick earth goddess. I actually think this is mostly because early monumentality is too good; if that was nerfed, I'd pick different pantheons more.

Pantheons...how could I forget them? Updated it.

Yeah, have golden age dedication balance in there.

Intelligence Agency is not as dominant as you think, now, though it is still the most picked.

Secret Society balance is in there.

Religious beliefs...yeah, will need more feedback on that.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Religious beliefs...yeah, will need more feedback on that.

Follower Beliefs.

S Tier (why pick anything else lawl)
Work Ethic-- Easy to take advantage of, even more ways to make it strong

A Tier (I rolled a lucky map, and pretend this is the norm)
Reliquiaries-- lol quick victory

B Tier (is good but AI tendencies make impossible, so you should pick Work Ethic)
Choral Music

C Tier (Good, but you should pick Work Ethic anyways unless you really can't get any adjacency)
Religious Communities
Feed the World
Jesuit Education

X Tier (Who cares, pick Work Ethic)
The rest

M Tier (memes)
Warrior Monks

Enhancer

S Tier (Crusade)
Crusade

A Tier (I can't use Crusade)
Defender of the Faith

B Tier (I misclicked)
Holy Orders
Religious Colonization

F Tier (I'm sure you meant crusade?)
Everything Else

Worship

S Tier (Arabia)
Arabian ones (doesn't matter; most of them suck anyways, but Arabia has a massive discount and gets science/culture. The actual building is irrelevant. )

A Tier (If you're not Arabia, I'm sorry you misclicked. But.... )
Pagoda
Mosque

D Tier (Not completely useless, but probably)
Stupa

F Tier (waste of an apostle or very desperate for era score.)
Everything else\

Founder Beliefs

Probably the only interesting set. They're all pretty balanced and usually very situational; many actually encourage you to spread your religion. I think Tithe is pretty reliable, and Sacred Places is good for wonder builders. Stewardship and all the cultural ones are very good.

 

[Jkchart]

I agree with a lot of things but really...I don't play like a lot of you others I guess because my games don't end in the Renaissance. I usually get most of the game (admittedly I don't play "optimally" all the time).

Sewers SHOULD have extra amenities. 2 housing for that cost is useless, and sanitation is a huge realistic amenity. Neighborhoods could use more buildings and you should be able to build a building per neighborhood, not "oh you can have all the neighborhoods but only one building". Really dumb.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I agree with a lot of things but really...I don't play like a lot of you others I guess because my games don't end in the Renaissance. I usually get most of the game (admittedly I don't play "optimally" all the time).

Sewers SHOULD have extra amenities. 2 housing for that cost is useless, and sanitation is a huge realistic amenity. Neighborhoods could use more buildings and you should be able to build a building per neighborhood, not "oh you can have all the neighborhoods but only one building". Really dumb.

I think you should suffer a amenities penalty for not enough sanitation, but it will be based on how many civs have sewers. If very few civs have sewers in most of their cities, then the effect is nil, but if every civ starts to have them, then people will get mad.

 

[Dotsworthy]

I think you should suffer a amenities penalty for not enough sanitation, but it will be based on how many civs have sewers. If very few civs have sewers in most of their cities, then the effect is nil, but if every civ starts to have them, then people will get mad.

This should also apply to power. But given the board game nature of the design of civ vi, I think it's far more likely they would just add amenities.

 

[aieeegrunt]

I agree with a lot of things but really...I don't play like a lot of you others I guess because my games don't end in the Renaissance. I usually get most of the game (admittedly I don't play "optimally" all the time).

Sewers SHOULD have extra amenities. 2 housing for that cost is useless, and sanitation is a huge realistic amenity. Neighborhoods could use more buildings and you should be able to build a building per neighborhood, not "oh you can have all the neighborhoods but only one building". Really dumb.

Sewers are also in a ridiculous place on the tech tree. Rome, Pergamum etc comfortably predate the birth of Christ

 

[UWHabs]

Sewers are also in a ridiculous place on the tech tree. Rome, Pergamum etc comfortably predate the birth of Christ

I don't think they're horrible to represent more of the modern sewer system. But yeah, they've added a whole bunch of new sources of housing that outside of the inspiration, I have a really hard time wanting to place them.

Of course, the whole notion of "urbanization/industrialization" in the game is so lackluster, I do think that they could do some cool things. Like, if sewers were the piece needed to grow your cities large (ie. something like reducing the food/housing/amenity costs of having citizens work in districts/buildings), then they could be a piece that you rush for in order to industrialize and grow your empire.

There's other pieces like that too, where other buildings/districts/etc... have gained some bonuses to make them more useful and more relevant (even small things like aqueducts gaining an amenity from fissures, aqueduct adjacency to IZ, shopping mall tourism, zoo bonuses to jungles, etc...), but then other ones like airports and sewers are just kind of left behind and become irrelevant.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Sewers are also in a ridiculous place on the tech tree. Rome, Pergamum etc comfortably predate the birth of Christ

As said above sewers in the game are supposed to represent the modern sewage systems. You could argue that the Aqueduct District is supposed to represent the sanitation practices of the ancient world such as Rome etc.

I do agree with others that sewers should give more than just housing and amenities seem like a good fit.

 

[iammaxhailme]

Follower Beliefs.

S Tier (why pick anything else lawl)
Work Ethic-- Easy to take advantage of, even more ways to make it strong

A Tier (I rolled a lucky map, and pretend this is the norm)
Reliquiaries-- lol quick victory

B Tier (is good but AI tendencies make impossible, so you should pick Work Ethic)
Choral Music

C Tier (Good, but you should pick Work Ethic anyways unless you really can't get any adjacency)
Religious Communities
Feed the World
Jesuit Education

X Tier (Who cares, pick Work Ethic)
The rest

M Tier (memes)
Warrior Monks

Enhancer

S Tier (Crusade)
Crusade

A Tier (I can't use Crusade)
Defender of the Faith

B Tier (I misclicked)
Holy Orders
Religious Colonization

F Tier (I'm sure you meant crusade?)
Everything Else

Worship

S Tier (Arabia)
Arabian ones (doesn't matter; most of them suck anyways, but Arabia has a massive discount and gets science/culture. The actual building is irrelevant. )

A Tier (If you're not Arabia, I'm sorry you misclicked. But.... )
Pagoda
Mosque

D Tier (Not completely useless, but probably)
Stupa

F Tier (waste of an apostle or very desperate for era score.)
Everything else\

Founder Beliefs

Probably the only interesting set. They're all pretty balanced and usually very situational; many actually encourage you to spread your religion. I think Tithe is pretty reliable, and Sacred Places is good for wonder builders. Stewardship and all the cultural ones are very good.

I forget the names of the buildings, but yeah, as far as T3/religious buildings go, they're super lame. I only bother unlocking them for the era score (same for inquisitors in a lot of games...). The diplomatic favor one is far and away the best one as well. The amenity one is OK and the missionaries spread one extra is OK if you have a belief like tithe or +science/culture from each world follower. The rest are just plain awful IIRC.

For enhancer beliefs... I'm kind of a peacemonger so I never pick combat related ones, but the non-combat ones are... so lame. I usually pick religious colonization just to enable my laziness, or scripture if I'm in danger of my religion being wiped out (in that case I'd probably use the apostle to spread instead of enhance but... idk)

 

[PiR]

I usually pick religious colonization just to enable my laziness

same

 

[Archon_Wing]

forget the names of the buildings, but yeah, as far as T3/religious buildings go, they're super lame. I only bother unlocking them for the era score (same for inquisitors in a lot of games...). The diplomatic favor one is far and away the best one as well. The amenity one is OK and the missionaries spread one extra is OK if you have a belief like tithe or +science/culture from each world follower. The rest are just plain awful IIRC.

Pagodas can be good for warmongers to offset favor penalties... but only maybe as Arabia. 300+ faith for most of them is just bad though I guess you can hardbuild them. And even as Arabia I pick them as an inital belief because burning an Apostle for it is crazy. Maybe if you built that mahabodhi

For enhancer beliefs... I'm kind of a peacemonger so I never pick combat related ones, but the non-combat ones are... so lame. I usually pick religious colonization just to enable my laziness, or scripture if I'm in danger of my religion being wiped out (in that case I'd probably use the apostle to spread instead of enhance but... idk)

Defender of the Faith would be better for peaceful games so you don't need to build many troops vs barbs or attackers. I did want to give Religious Colonization credit but tbh that's one of those decent beliefs I never take. Holy Orders is probably still better.

 

[SuperFly47]

The mosque is worth getting if you're going to be spreading your religion around. One extra charge makes missionaries and apostles 33% better for spreading your religion. You only need to build a mosque in a couple cities that build missionaries and apostles.

 

[UWHabs]

The mosque is worth getting if you're going to be spreading your religion around. One extra charge makes missionaries and apostles 33% better for spreading your religion. You only need to build a mosque in a couple cities that build missionaries and apostles.

My big problem with some of the religious pieces are that there are various beliefs you can pick to help spread, but when I pick them, I don't have space to have any beliefs for having my religion spread. So, yeah, I can take the mosques to get more charges, or the one to get passive spread, or the one to get wider spread, or cheaper apostles, but since you only get like 4 beliefs total, once I have grabbed one then I don't have enough belief spaces to also get Titles or the ones that give science or whatever. It's just another spot of the game where I really want like one more piece to fit in together, and then it's make a much bigger system. Since unless if you're going straight RV, it doesn't really help if you have all the bonuses to spread your religion if you don't get a bonus for having it spread.

 

[Victoria]

B Tier (I misclicked)
Holy Orders

Now some of us do not spam a million temples and you can be quite economical with faith.
The whole buying missionaries and apostles is not necessary if you get a belief that does not require lots of cities (like reliquaries just to get more faith in your 1 temple) you get faith from pillaging, more than enough so why burn up early districts? Equally you are ahead on science why bother with religious combat bonuses? It all seems an economy to keep itself alive for little value... holy orders is my pick so if I need to get an inquisitor it does not kill my faith
In fact any RV game, holy orders is by far the S tier isn’t it?.. unless MP

I do agree with others that sewers should give more than just housing and amenities seem like a good fit.

I quite like the struggle for amenities, otherwise it’s smiley happy faces holding hands... all the way.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Now some of us do not spam a million temples and you can be quite economical with faith.
The whole buying missionaries and apostles is not necessary if you get a belief that does not require lots of cities (like reliquaries just to get more faith in your 1 temple) you get faith from pillaging, more than enough so why burn up early districts? Equally you are ahead on science why bother with religious combat bonuses? It all seems an economy to keep itself alive for little value... holy orders is my pick so if I need to get an inquisitor it does not kill my faith
In fact any RV game, holy orders is by far the S tier isn’t it?.. unless MP

Oh, I hate reliquaries. It's so gimmicky but you know people will defend it because of those few times you run into Kandy early or something. But I felt like I had to recognize its power.

Holy orders is mostly RV; yea I suppose one does found a religion for that. I would think Holy Orders is pretty good if you combo it with a belief that scale with cities and you don't want to pillage for whatever reason. And it would help you get a 3rd belief faster. Passive spread is also really garbage, and probably good for Georgia too to take advantage of their whole kit.

It is one of the best beliefs which is why I mentioned it above the rest. I just never end up taking it. But I do pick it more than reliquaries.

Personally I just like spreading defender of the faith to a city state or something, and use them as a launchpad for invasion. Also really good for defending the city states and yes I play Georgia way too much for my own good. If you don't have the religious dominance for crusade, DOTF has some interesting interaction with range and siege units if you forward the enemy hard enough. Plus the immediate benefit of defending vs those stupid barb man @ arms.

 

[Time Tested]

I still feel that the major thing missing from the game is engaging diplomacy. In the early game, a lot of the fun is in expanding and building up your infrastructure, and "diplomacy" is mostly just land grabs and maybe some early trade. In the late game, I like how international trade steps up and becomes a major driver of my economy. However, with expansion done and infrastructure set, I really feel a lack of engagement with the world. I would love to see more options to interact with the other by pushing them into certain policies or strategies that can benefit me or hinder the other civs.

Examples:
- Trade embargoes (either preventing them from trading with me, or asking them to stop trading with an enemy). Whenever I'm in Democracy, I really feel the pain when an alliance expires and I lose massive amounts of food/production. I think this could be an interesting dynamic if civs were able to threaten the loss to a big part of my economy.
- Requesting trade to certain cities. The whole "get +2 yield for international trade route to your city" mechanic seems totally wasted if I can't actually get someone to trade with that city.
- Incentives to align on government types or policies, and the ability to actually ask a civ to switch their government.
- Ability to create a super-alliance where you permanently ally and actually contribute to the same victory goals (like how a Team works in multiplayer today).
- Aligning on strategic targets during wars (e.g. attacking a specific city or barb camp)
- Aligning on any other goals that benefit both parties, or return a specific boost. Kind of like CS quests, but between civs. Some ideas: gain access to a specific resource (strategic or luxury); settle in a specific area or avoid settling there; research a specific technology so that I get a boost.
- Trading maps
- Negotiating borders
- Allowing permission to build some improvements on each others' lands

I would also love a game setting where you could watch other players' movements, provided you have visibility. I often feel like I'm playing alone and have no idea what is going on in the world.

 

[Kwami]

Oh, I hate reliquaries. It's so gimmicky but you know people will defend it because of those few times you run into Kandy early or something. But I felt like I had to recognize its power.

Reliquaries is also really good with Heroes and with Secret Societies if you choose Cultists.

 

[Pietato]

Added a bit about natural wonders and general appeal.

This is getting quite large...

I still feel that the major thing missing from the game is engaging diplomacy. In the early game, a lot of the fun is in expanding and building up your infrastructure, and "diplomacy" is mostly just land grabs and maybe some early trade. In the late game, I like how international trade steps up and becomes a major driver of my economy. However, with expansion done and infrastructure set, I really feel a lack of engagement with the world. I would love to see more options to interact with the other by pushing them into certain policies or strategies that can benefit me or hinder the other civs.

Examples:
- Trade embargoes (either preventing them from trading with me, or asking them to stop trading with an enemy). Whenever I'm in Democracy, I really feel the pain when an alliance expires and I lose massive amounts of food/production. I think this could be an interesting dynamic if civs were able to threaten the loss to a big part of my economy.
- Requesting trade to certain cities. The whole "get +2 yield for international trade route to your city" mechanic seems totally wasted if I can't actually get someone to trade with that city.
- Incentives to align on government types or policies, and the ability to actually ask a civ to switch their government.
- Ability to create a super-alliance where you permanently ally and actually contribute to the same victory goals (like how a Team works in multiplayer today).
- Aligning on strategic targets during wars (e.g. attacking a specific city or barb camp)
- Aligning on any other goals that benefit both parties, or return a specific boost. Kind of like CS quests, but between civs. Some ideas: gain access to a specific resource (strategic or luxury); settle in a specific area or avoid settling there; research a specific technology so that I get a boost.
- Trading maps
- Negotiating borders
- Allowing permission to build some improvements on each others' lands

I would also love a game setting where you could watch other players' movements, provided you have visibility. I often feel like I'm playing alone and have no idea what is going on in the world.

Will have to wait for civ 7 for a proper trade and diplomacy system, sadly.

Does Papal Primacy burst pressure around it, or just to the CS?

 

[PiR]

- AI taking part in emergency aid no longer building aid projects nor giving gold, allowing the player to gain 2 diplo points with 1 gold (or: do not grant 2 DP for the emergency aids)

 

[Alaindor]

View attachment 599144

This seems to be a counter-example... I consistently observed what I stated above in several games with M&C mode, I wonder if this is linked as it seems to break the AI balance quite severely.

Did anyone else observe this?