Combat AI

[Ulthwithian]

Something I recall seeing is that the developers may not be able to use AI mods without opening themselves up to legal challenges for payment by the developers of those mods.

If this is true, then the fact that we have effective AI mods in V might be the reason we may not have effective AI in VI.

I am also fairly well trained in AI development, being a simulation modeler as my day job, and I will agree with nsk that people in this thread are drastically underestimating the amount of work it takes to get AI right.

Having said that, I also feel that Magil's point that Civ 5 AI mods work using the framework the Civ developers created is kinda... weird.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Something I recall seeing is that the developers may not be able to use AI mods without opening themselves up to legal challenges for payment by the developers of those mods

It depends on the terms. It's totally possible what modders automatically agree for their code to be reused by developers - need checking. And even if not, buying the code wouldn't be a problem for firaxis.

The reason why they don't do it is simple - it's easier to write new code than adopting existing one.

 

[Magil]

Something I recall seeing is that the developers may not be able to use AI mods without opening themselves up to legal challenges for payment by the developers of those mods.

If this is true, then the fact that we have effective AI mods in V might be the reason we may not have effective AI in VI.

Sorry, but I'm not buying that "since they modded the AI to be good, Firaxis can't make the AI good". Nobody says they have to use the modder's code, but they can certainly learn from it, if they're not up to working with the modders.

I am also fairly well trained in AI development, being a simulation modeler as my day job, and I will agree with nsk that people in this thread are drastically underestimating the amount of work it takes to get AI right.

I don't think anyone expects a super-computer AI here. Or even one that can compete with the human player on a level playing field. Just something that's a fair bit better than the sad excuse of a tactical AI from V.

Having said that, I also feel that Magil's point that Civ 5 AI mods work using the framework the Civ developers created is kinda... weird.

Is it really that weird? They have access to the dll. I've done some modding myself, and it's much easier to mod with an existing framework than to create a whole new one.

 

[Gali]

I had hoped Civ fanatics could avoid the level of discussion that makes people view the gaming community as whiny entitled 14 years old but that has faded. Companies don't make great AI because it makes no financial sense. As games have become much more complicated Ai logic is insanely complex. Since 95% of their consumers really don't care about the AI it makes no financial sense for them to invest the resources needed to make it to the standards of that 5%.

Modders can fix Ai because they have a number of advantages. Modders don't need to put updates through official and expensive patching processes allowing for much more frequent updates. Especially since they don't suffer nearly the same consequences if something is broken. They do their work after release when the community has come up with ideal strategies. They can tailor their work to a more hardcore audience making things more complex and difficult than the casual gamer would prefer. They also don't have to actually pay people so they can work on their own schedule.

It is not too late for the AI to improve. Read what Sulla had to write about his time developing Civ 4. At this time in development the AI had MASSIVE problems taking cities. But then they fixed it. Ai improves a lot in the last 4 months with features and balance much closer to completion. The AI in Civ 6 will not satisfy the hardcore players on release. This was obvious since before it was announced. Its not like civ 4 had a great Ai and that was much more simple game to make the Ai threatening. The videos have shown the AI to be able to move and shoot and that barbarians are much more threatening than in civ 5. If the mod tools are anywhere near what they are advertised then the AI will be improved quickly. Then Firaxis can put those improvements into te expansions like they did with Civ 4.

 

[Acken]

The minimum is civ5 level and dll availibility. If neither is there at release.... ugh.

 

[Magil]

I had hoped Civ fanatics could avoid the level of discussion that makes people view the gaming community as whiny entitled 14 years old but that has faded.

Yes, hoping that the exact same series of mistakes doesn't get repeated makes people sound a lot like whiny entitled 14-year olds

Companies don't make great AI because it makes no financial sense. As games have become much more complicated Ai logic is insanely complex. Since 95% of their consumers really don't care about the AI it makes no financial sense for them to invest the resources needed to make it to the standards of that 5%.

Obviously. I stated most of this myself. Doesn't mean I can't hope for a better situation, though.

I realize I'm not looking at this from the developers' perspective, or from a business perspective, but I don't think that means my own perspective is useless.

Modders can fix Ai because they have a number of advantages. Modders don't need to put updates through official and expensive patching processes allowing for much more frequent updates. Especially since they don't suffer nearly the same consequences if something is broken. They do their work after release when the community has come up with ideal strategies. They can tailor their work to a more hardcore audience making things more complex and difficult than the casual gamer would prefer. They also don't have to actually pay people so they can work on their own schedule.

Also, modders don't get paid for their work

It is not too late for the AI to improve. Read what Sulla had to write about his time developing Civ 4. At this time in development the AI had MASSIVE problems taking cities. But then they fixed it. Ai improves a lot in the last 4 months with features and balance much closer to completion. The AI in Civ 6 will not satisfy the hardcore players on release. This was obvious since before it was announced. Its not like civ 4 had a great Ai and that was much more simple game to make the Ai threatening. The videos have shown the AI to be able to move and shoot and that barbarians are much more threatening than in civ 5. If the mod tools are anywhere near what they are advertised then the AI will be improved quickly. Then Firaxis can put those improvements into te expansions like they did with Civ 4.

If the AI improves significantly between the build we've been shown and release I will be pleasantly surprised, and I'd certainly be happy to be wrong in this case. As has already been said, however, given all that went wrong with V I think it's reasonable to be a little wary.