Commerce and Energy issues.

[Neutrino_]

Hi.

I just started playing Alpha Centauri recently and I'm encountering an issue with commerce in SMAC whereby I get no income from it at all in circumstances where I would expect to get something.

I'm playing the Peacekeepers and have a Pact with the Morganites. I have the following bases in involved in commmerce (ordered by energy income):

Pop, Energy Income, Commerce Income
3 5 0
4 3 0
2 3 0
1 1 0


The Morganites have the following bases:

Pop, Energy Income, Commerce Income
5 16 3
3 15 2
2 12 2
1 10 2


On the base control screen for each of my bases the Commerce pane states:

Morganites: +0
Pact (they get +N)

...where 'N' is the Trade Income value listed for the Morganite bases in the table above. Clicking on each Morganite base in turn the values listed in their Commerce pane matches what the base control screen for my bases says they are getting, but all of my bases are getting zero.

I've had a look at the formula in the Advanced Commerce datalink and in the AC wiki. http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Commerce_(Advanced)

I can't work out exactly what I should be getting because I don't know what technologies qualify as economic technologies nor which ecomonic technologies have been discovered by all factions, there is also integer division involved and I don't know what rounding is applied. However it's still fairly early game (year 2176) so on that basis I would expect to be getting rather less than each Morganite base (as their starting tech is an economic one and they get a faction bonus to commerce) but I would still expect to be getting _something_.

The other thing I notice is that on the base control screen in the "Intake - Consumption - Surplus" pane the energy consumption value for all my bases is zero and the surplus matches the intake, despite the fact that in the Energy Allocation pane I have energy allocated to Economy and Labs (stuff is being researched correctly).

On the MFD that cycles faction info my commerce there is also listed as zero, as is my energy expenditure.

Does anyone know what's going on here?

I'm using a GOG version of SMAC which I downloaded just the other day. Which states it is Release 5.0, 8-July-2002. Attempting to execute the Universal Update(2.0.0 -> 2.0.2) it states "Update already applied". On Windows 7.

 

[Buster's Uncle]

I've never gotten any sense of how trade balance works myself, and I've been playing since 1997. Maybe Petek will know. I do vaguely suspect that relative individual base population is a major factor...

 

[Petek]

I never paid much attention to how Commerce works. I also have the impression that you start to get commerce income later than you expect.

The econ techs can be found in the #TECHNOLOGY section of your Alpha.txt file. They are the ones in which the last column is

000000100

To determine what econ techs have been discovered by all factions, Open the Scenario Editor (Ctrl-K) and open the F2 screen. You should be able to see all the techs discovered by each faction. Save your game before opening the Scenario Editor, and reload it when you're done (otherwise you won't get a score at the end of the game).

The other thing I notice is that on the base control screen in the "Intake - Consumption - Surplus" pane the energy consumption value for all my bases is zero and the surplus matches the intake, despite the fact that in the Energy Allocation pane I have energy allocated to Economy and Labs (stuff is being researched correctly).

On the MFD that cycles faction info my commerce there is also listed as zero, as is my energy expenditure.

Does anyone know what's going on here?

Not sure. Please post a save game and we can take a look. You have the most recent official version of SMAC. The Universal Update is only needed by those who downloaded the game shortly after GOG's initial release.

 

[Neutrino_]

Here is my saved game.

 

[Petek]

Bases generate Energy. They can lose some of this energy due to inefficiency. The net energy is then allocated to Economy, Labs and Psych as specified by the sliders on your Social Engineering screen. For example, U.N. Headquarters generates 3 units of Energy. That comes from 2 Energy from the base square and one from a worked tile. The 3 net Energy units should be allocated 50% to Economy and 50% to Labs. However, the game doesn't use fractions for this purpose, so you get 1 Economy and 2 Labs (seems that Labs get preference over Economy).

The calculations for the other bases are similar. Note that U.N. Information Agency has -1 Energy due to inefficiency and U.N. Planning Authority has +1 bonus Econ because it's stockpiling energy.

Hope that answers some of your questions. I'll look at the Commerce calculations later.

 

[Neutrino_]

Thanks I understand that much better now. The terms Consumption and Surplus in the Resource Collection Readout confused me somewhat.

A better way to think of it is that the values to the left of the bar are for maintenance (minerals support for existing units, nutrients to feed existing population, energy for inefficiency) while values to the right of the bar are what's left over to be used for development (minerals for unit construction, nutrients for population growth, energy for eco labs and psyc).

 

[Petek]

In the formula for Commerce income, the Economic Technologies (as defined in alpha.txt) are Industrial Economics, Industrial Automation, Environmental Economics, Planetary Economics, Industrial Nanorobotics and Sentient Econometrics. If you assume that fractions are dropped in the formula, then your commerce income is zero mainly because you haven't discovered any economic technologies. I couldn't make Morgan's commerce income match what's given by the formula. I think what's important is that your commerce income will eventually grow after you research some economic techs and your bases grow (assuming that you keep your pact with Morgan and possibly sign more treaties and pacts).

Hope this helps!

 

[Neutrino_]

I think you are right. I played another game that started similarly but later on my trade income eventually inched up to 1 or 2 energy.

I have to say I think I'd count it as a bug though. Even if the benefit each trading partner accrues is not equal, trade should at least always be mutually benefitial to a certain extent. For the Morganites to be getting 9 energy/turn while I get absolutely nothing is just daft, I'd be better off cancelling the agreement completely.

 

[Buster's Uncle]

That's an interesting point about the design - I think I'll mention that to Yitzi and see if he takes an interest in modding it...

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

I think you are right. I played another game that started similarly but later on my trade income eventually inched up to 1 or 2 energy.

I have to say I think I'd count it as a bug though. Even if the benefit each trading partner accrues is not equal, trade should at least always be mutually benefitial to a certain extent. For the Morganites to be getting 9 energy/turn while I get absolutely nothing is just daft, I'd be better off cancelling the agreement completely.

If you want gifts then demand energy credits in diplomacy. An economically minuscule colony being dominated by an advanced (and especially savvy) mercantile power during the time you have to play nice is 100% accurate.
So yeah, you would be better off canceling the agreement, if you can get away with having no treaty.

Not saying the divergence from formula isn't fishy.

 

[Volcanon]

I almost never get commerce except from puppeted factions.

On the higher difficulties I might have a treaty with one other faction, usually one of the peaceful ones. Everybody else hates me forever because I go green or planned or whatever. Like, I might get a few tech trades before turn 20 and then they backstab me and only ever agree to a truce afterwards. They don't stop attacking so I'm forced to conquor them. Once they swear an oath to serve me I get commerce

 

[Recon Rover]

Here is my saved game.

I took a look at your game.

I am going to recommend some changes for you:

1) Trade all of your tech with Morgan and switch to a planned economy. Do not switch to wealth yet.

2) Trade all of your tech with Miriam but do not trade her Non Linear Mathematics.

3) Switch all of your production to Pressure Domes now except for U.N. aid station where you should build a colony pod.

4) Disband all of your units leaving one scout in every city except U.N. Headquarters you can leave your Recon Rover and in U.N. information agency leave two scouts.

5) Do not automate your formers. Have all of your formers build roads, forests, and mines on hills. You need to build supply crawlers to take advantage of the mines.

6) Your first goal for research should be Advanced Military Algorithms. You must build a Punishment Sphere in every city before you switch to Free Market. You must do this quickly, Morgan will not tolerate your Planned economy for long.

7) Your second goal for research should be Environmental Economics right now, when acquired build tree farms immediately.

8) You need to continue expanding. Build a transport and ship colony pods off to other islands.

9) The order you should build in every new city is a cheap unit, former, colony pod, pressure dome, and recreation commons until you have punishment spheres. You will purchase spheres in newly built cities when the technology becomes available.

10) If you can, build the Human Genome Project or The Virtual World.

11) Leave your economy and labs at 50%.

12) Give Miriam whatever she wants when she threatens you. Every once in a while you need to build a strong prototype in one of your cities so if she invades you you can upgrade the scouts on your border.

In preferences:

13) Turn off tutorial messages.

14) Turn off design units automatically.

15) Turn on Pause at the end of every turn

16) Move all units quickly.

17) Turn on confirm-odds before attacking

18) Turn on fast battle resolution

FINALLY) Acquire nerve gas when you like and wipe Miriam out as quickly as possible with preferably air units when communications are down.

 

[Giftless]

Your best bet with trade is to beat up (and thus gain) one or two "pet" factions and then gift them crappy sea bases to bring their total number of bases closer to your own. You can have large pop bases while they have small pop bases, and still pull in 20+ energy per route-- assuming you have high technology and they have enough bases to pair up with your faction. Note too the routes will often "dance around" if you adjust the energy production at any particular base; if you think you've lost the route it may have just moved.

I believe trade also automatically funnels over into the left-hand energy input bar, so it can be affected if you have losses due to inefficiency. I usually play with high efficiency social engineering and around 20-25 bases-- with none of them placed too far away from the capital if I can help it.

 

[Giftless]

I think you are right. I played another game that started similarly but later on my trade income eventually inched up to 1 or 2 energy.

I have to say I think I'd count it as a bug though. Even if the benefit each trading partner accrues is not equal, trade should at least always be mutually benefitial to a certain extent. For the Morganites to be getting 9 energy/turn while I get absolutely nothing is just daft, I'd be better off cancelling the agreement completely.

It works in the opposite way too, if you've hit transcendent thought while your pact-ling sucks in the tech department, they could be pulling goose eggs while you're raking in the energy. Trade is one of those things which starts to kick in when you already have a tech lead and massive energy farms set up-- only the rich get richer, as they say.

 

[Buster's Uncle]

Yitzi does seem to think the notion of 1EC trade minimum per base/turn is a good idea. Not tough to code, either, if you know the right spot in the program, and he seems to.