Commerce Discussion - The War of Mathematics

[Octavian X]

This past turnchat has seen some interesting developments in the arena of foreign affairs. For one, we established an embassy with China, as part of the Consul of External Affair's program to strengthen relations with that nation. This is obviously a good step in the right direction.

From the embassy's new intelligence:

What's more interesting is that we're now at war with Japan and Persia, due to a demand of Mathmamatics that both made, and that were both rejected.

For reference, here's the world's minimap as we now have it:

We currently have an embassy with China, and it will cost us Philosophy (they can't be bought with gold) to get them to declare war on Persia. China has yet to meet Japan.

So, how do we want to do this? Ignore the two nations? Get a war going deeper with a system of alliances? Attempt to make peace?

Japan won't talk to us at the moment. It will take either Philosphy (for which we also get 64g) or 160g from our vaults to get Persia to make peace.

 

[Provolution]

I would like to call this war "the Abacus War".

 

[mad-bax]

Well, this is in-line with the External Consulates expectations and plans. War with Persia is perfect from every point of view imaginable. An MA with China against Persia is necessary however. We may see a few immortals in 15 turns or so. The Commander may need to time the war so that our units are in this area at the time we expect a visit.

I am unable to inspect a save ATM but will do so tonight and comment more tomorrow.
This is the best news we have had so far in the game.

 

[LeeT911]

I second Provolution's suggestion for "The Abacus Wars". Does the DG have an official historian?

Anyway, back on topic. I'm not so sure a Chinese-Persian war is such a great idea. They are in close proximity to each other, and a glance at the External Consul's info shows their power ratings to be fairly similar. Persia has Immortals, so they may have the advantage in this war. We don't want either of them to just gobble up the other. I concede that we do need someone in this with us though. We don't have the defenses to hold out when a stack of Immortals shows up on our doorstep. I think we should pitch the Dutch against the Persians (how much will that cost?). Maybe the Immortals can raze some cities for us.

Making peace would involve throwing gold or techs at the problem. I don't think we want to do that. Some people are drawing up plans to slow down the global tech pace, giving away research and money is not going to help that.

As for the Japanese, they are really far away. I think we can handle them as long as they don't draw in one of our neighbours against us. By the time their soldiers march their way across the world, we should have more than adequate defenses in place. We just need to make sure no one else declares war on us. If we don't ally with China, we might want to go ahead with the gift mad-bax proposed earlier so that they won't fight us.

I think the most critical thing is to get the Dutch involved if at all possible. We need them making units, and having their settlers/workers cowering in their cities.

 

[greekguy]

I think we should pitch the Dutch against the Persians

we don't want an MA with the Dutch. if we do this, then we will have to either wait 20 turns for the MA to expire or trash our rep. (not a good idea this early in the game) remember we either will have a war with the Dutch first or directly after a short Indian war.

 

[vikingruler]

i agree with greekguy, the 20 turn wait is too long, also we don't want to be nice to our enemy. plus the fact that persia is on the other side of the world means they probably won't be able to attack us.

 

[LeeT911]

Hmm... you're right, 20 turns may be too long to wait. After looking at the save, the Dutch are only 2 techs away from either Monarchy or Republic. Should we wait until they go into anarchy and declare war then? Or does that put them too close to Feudalism and Swiss Mercs?

Another point against dialing up the Chinese against the Persians. Look at the resource box for Beijing. No iron. No horses. Persia has iron. Persian Immortals versus Chinese Archers? Somehow I don't think that's going to swing in our favour. Plus Beijing is currently building the Pyramids. Their capital city will not be contributing to the war effort.

 

[Provolution]

Not a very well calculated move by the Persians and the Japanese LOL

 

[zyxy]

Funny how the same discussion takes place in two or three threads at the same time...

Anyway, we should not make peace with Persia or Japan, but take this opportunity and use it to our advantage. I agree that Persia is dangerous: the other AI's have no idea how to handle the immortals. We should sign up not just China, but several civs against Persia, otherwise Persia will be the next runaway civ.

 

[Provolution]

Zyxy

Frankly put, we got too many hands on the steering wheel, which gives all these disjointed threads. I urge you to look into Constitutional Articles C-E to figure out where this situation has originated.

 

[classical_hero]

Some one needs to fix that part of the constitution because we have so many roles that done in duplicate or even triplicate. We need one office to handle on thing and another office to handle another thing. We do not need two offices doing two jobs at the same time, that is mad bureaucracy and nothing will be done.

 

[Provolution]

Classical Hero

A likely answer to that is "If it ain't broke then don't fix it", I met that phrase a gazillion of times, and I gave up on them (the times that I actually managed to make a meaningful discussion out of it). I urge you to press for reform of said Articles as soon as possible.

 

[classical_hero]

Will try and to that tomorrow, If I have the time, because work is very busy ATM, but that is not too bad because I get overtime then.

 

[mad-bax]

If we pay for an MA with a lump sum payment we will not trash our rep. This is because we lose out in the deal. OTOH if the Dutch or the Chinese take peace early then they do trash their reps.

If we fight India first, then it will likely be 20 turns until we can declare on the Dutch anyway. An MA with the Dutch is truly inspired. Their troops will walk all the way to Persia and won't be home when we go knocking on their door.

 

[cavvie]

I agree with mad-bax on this one. It'll take that 20 turns at least to prepare for and wage war against the Indians. Then, with Dutch troops committed, what could be better?

 

[Ashburnham]

I have to say that, if we attack India before the Netherlands, getting the Dutch to attack Persia is a very good idea. The only possible negative I can see would be if the Dutch somehow overpower the Persians and take a large portion of their land. But, even this isn't much of a negative, because the more land they have over there, the more resources they will have to expend to defend it.

Of course, this all hinges on us not declaring war on the Dutch in the near future, which is still in doubt.

 

[vikingruler]

getting an MA with the dutch is a major mistake. first of all the dutch probably won't take them over, the persians probably have an immortal army. also, when the 20 turns are up it will be around our government switch time and a war in anarchy is a foolish move. so waiting the 20 turns is out of the question and trashing our rep. would cause trade to come to a halt and we would end up in a dark age.

 

[zyxy]

If we pay for an MA with a lump sum payment we will not trash our rep. <snip>

Interesting. So you may declare on your allies without a reputation hit I can see only two possible drawbacks:
1. The dutch may not know Persia yet, so we'll have to introduce them first. On their march to Persia the dutch troops will possibly meet more nations.
2. The dutch already are the tech kings. We'll probably have to sell them philo or even construction for an MA, bringing them closer to the feared swiss guys.

Does anyone know a way to determine the price of an alliance (without an embassy I mean, i.e., is there a formula of some kind?)

EDIT: sp

 

[DaveShack]

I think that rep is separate for treaties vs per turn payments. Breaking a treaty hurts, just not as much or the same way as breaking a payment plan.

 

[Octavian X]

Of course, I had always thought there was a rep hit involved whenever you entered into an MA, yet actually failed to take part in the fighting...