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Communitas map script

Those look better than I had thought they would! The indonesia islands looks especially good - crete looks awful. We should view these as proof of concept. It can be done if we want to do it. I was actually really happy with the original atoll art, personally, but I am happy to make islands if other people want them.

I'm pretty good at digital art, so if you tell me exactly what is needed to make the atolls look how you want, I can probably do it. You need to be very specific.

EDIT: the farm replacement looks absolutely terrible.

I'm neutral on the atoll issue, I can see the issues that some people have with the original artwork since they'll be called isles. But a fix for a cosmetic issue has a level of complexity and tools that the rest of this mod doesn't require. It's also right at the fringe of the scope of this project.

Otherwise, I don't really know what the isles/atolls should look like. I don't really have an eye for art or geography. I can tell you that the image needs to be constrained within a hex or it'll start clipping outside the hex tile's borders. You can see this in the mod I posted, especially the diagonal isles/atolls. An additional 5-10 px buffer from hex edges too would probably be good too.

And hopefully the devs get around to fixing the farm crash bug or the atoll replacement won't be possible without the replacement.


I've tried this map script twice, and both times the game just ends on turn 1, and I never even get to see my units - does it only work with the Communitas expansion pack?

(And is there an easy way to get those big fat zeros out of my hall of fame?)

I assume that since the turn 0 defeat affected your HoF score that you're using the mapscript in unmodded singleplayer?

And here's a link that google gave me for your HoF issue: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=435916
 
@sav
That happens when there's a bug in map creation, so the game just stops, leaving nothing made. It then checks to see if players have any cities for the win/loss conditions. It's a weird way of telling us "Hey something went wrong!"

Which version are you using? Some older versions had bugs that caused this. You might try downloading the map again. If you enable error logging, the bugs will show up in the lua.log file, which you can attach to a post here for me to inspect. The map's still in beta testing until I work out the bugs.


I'm pretty good at digital art, so if you tell me exactly what is needed to make the atolls look how you want, I can probably do it. You need to be very specific.

@jacktannery
I'd like to get the isles close to the game's art style. You could try cutting up and rearranging the original atoll islands into shapes resembling real world islands, if you like matching things to Earth. I was just going to rearrange them into interesting formations without trying to simulate real life island formations.
 
I'd like to get the isles close to the game's art style. You could try cutting up and rearranging the original atoll islands into shapes resembling real world islands, if you like matching things to Earth. I was just going to rearrange them into interesting formations without trying to simulate real life island formations.

I don't find the atolls as isles issue to be high priority, but this sounds like the best plan. Wouldn't like to have uglier farm graphics instead, though!

Question: If we replace the graphics in the core game folder, the game should never know anything changed and the farm bug shouldn't appear, right?
There's of course still the problem that those files are hidden into some big container files IIRC.
 
I did some further testing of Terra maps, and while I still can't tell you more about the placement algorithm of CS's, I had some related thoughts:

Are we overcomplicating things?

I told you what I like about Terra, how there's an option to continue playing peaceful/wide after midgame and how it represents the real-world colonization wave ingame. That's all still true.

But - We have a world divided in 3 parts right now:
  • starting continent
  • rest of the old world
  • new world

It's the middle part that seems questionable to me. Do we need to specify that civs start together on one landmass? Especially if the mapscript doesn't naturally create a cohesive landmass that's large enough?
Don't get me wrong, your code that does the connection is awesome. It creates surprisingly naturally-looking "Panama" or "Suez" settings. And it is without doubt very useful in the opposite role - to avoid "locked Gibraltar" situations. We really don't want large bodies of water without ocean connection on every second map.

BUT:
Very often the mapscript now connects all major old world landmasses anyway. This means, Civs are often placed all across the old world anyway.
Why don't we allow Civs to start all across the old world (on multiple continents if needed) in the first place? The code that turns most of the old world into one landmass seems a bit of a detour to achieve a very similar goal.

Basically, terra games would play like slightly more crowded continents plus games before astronomy. After unlocking ocean-going ships, we would have another part of the map that allows continued peaceful expansion. Continents plus games are working very well anyway, we don't need to artificially depart further from them than necessary.

The timeframe between "Sailing" and "Astronomy" is probably not long enough to justify having another expansion wave inbetween. We can probably barely finish settling our own surroundings (first expansion wave) before we unlock Astronommy (final expasion wave). Why such an effort to create another middle wave? Note that the map script creates many (awesome-looking) archipelagos like the region around indonesia. Civs adjacent to such areas will have a chance to settle them very early regardless.

I feel a bit bad for the effort you had creating those functions I criticize now, sorry for that! I liked them initially, and didn't come to this conclusion before creating a bunch of test maps yesterday. And I admit that I was trapped a bit in the "more complexity is always better" mindset.



A few more detailed thoughts:

Connected landmasses do have the advantage that AI's have a chronic weakness in terms of naval warfare and invasions, so in theory the connections should help the AI. But we need to boost the AI in this regard anyway for "normal" communitas or continents+ maps. I also fear that narrow single-tile bottleneck landbridges will often cripple their efforts more than crossing water. The AI's would probably often prefer the land way at all costs, where they're often stuck and need embarking anyway. The human could abuse this and attack their forces while they're in water or simply block the landbridge with very few units and a citadel. I think the AI's would be more dangerous when we can't predict where they will exactly attack. I also think they should be better at invading us when they "know" they have to do a naval attack. This makes it more likely they realize they need an escort of warships. If they are accidentally forced to embark due to the narrowness of the landbridge, they probably won't have ships ready.

I generally think the human can much better cope with complex situations like needing two navies (one for the east, one for the west coast). The human would probably try to put a city on the landbridge to connect the two bodies of water and avoid this issue. I doubt we'll have an AI that understands the value of Panama-style channels anytime soon.


Apart from the AI, there's the issue of isolated starts. While no civ would start in a place where they don't meet trading partners before Astronomy, we should probably avoid starting positions on continents smaller than -say- 50 land tiles. Ideally, it should be rare to start on a landmass completely alone (without another major civ). But then again, this is a problem that applies for "normal" Communitas or C+ maps as well. I'm sure there's already a function in existence to avoid this.


We should also reevaluate map sizes when changing the distribution of starting positions. I think that the old world on its own should provide something around 20% less land tiles than on "normal" maps. This crowdedness should be enough to make oversea settling more appealing, but not enough to make every game end in an early world war like on overcrowded Pangea maps.
The new world on the other hand should offer plenty of space to explore and settle. Settling 50 tiles away from home is an considerable effort, and we should be rewarded with a plentiful selection of good spots for this. We also don't want that the first few civs to unlock Astronomy can grab all good spots within a few dozen turns.

Sorry for the wall of text, hope it helps a bit! ;)








Yeah, we should be able to drop the graphics in a game folder somewhere to get it override the art without using mods.

It should be this folder:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization V\Resource\DX9

The fpk files in there are the big archives that contain the .dds files. I think we can just drop the .dds files between them.

Here's a very similar mod that changed te colour of the ugly vanilla trading posts: link
The readme in there should describe what we need to know.
 
Just the one that downloads with the main mod, and the one you download separately by clicking on the button on the site.

Will try again on my next game, I guess!

I seem to have the 0 turn bug if I put world age, temperature, rainfall or sea level to random. Any of those on random is enough to cause the bug.

Mazer100
 
@mazer100
Thank you for that helpful information! I forgot to test the random climate options. I'll do so now. :)

Do we need to specify that civs start together on one landmass?

There are two options in the files:

  • Start on the biggest continent (terra)
  • Start on continents (continents)
  • Start in a rectangular area (archipelago)

The archipelago option appears to ignore landmasses, and does not attempt to balance player territories.

I looked at the code for a while to see if we could modify it. It's possible... and I don't really know how much work it might take, but I got tired of sifting through other people's code. A lot of code in civ 5 is hard to read because it doesn't follow standard programming industry principles. (though, to be fair, almost no one follows good programming principles)
 
I got tired of sifting through other people's code.

Nevermind then. I didn't want to tire you! I just thought we could take complexity out of the whole script, making things easier for you!

To clarify:
This is BY FAR the most interesting map script I've ever seen for both Civ4 and Civ5. Practically all maps I created so far for testing purposes look beautiful and should be perfectly playable. Experience from practical gaming so far suggest the same.

You've created a work of art as it is. You don't have to change anything from now on except occasional bugs that might show up.

The only small issue I've seen is that CS's seem to be 70% on the starting landmass, not sure why. The part of the script that assigns CS locations is beyond my comprehension.
 
It's unfortunate we can't do it the other way around with Terra, making the biggest continent the only empty one (assuming the biggest continent can only grow to ~1/3 of the tiles anyways).

The maps I've seen/created so far seem all to be more 'crowded', but I attribute that to the new randomness of the starting situations whereas with the standard continents plus maps you could 'calculate' quite easily the distances and all. And of course we need to get familiar with the finetuning options.

Btw. have you added tooltips for the options to explain what they'll do. I always (...) play with the Real Advanced Starting Options mod and that seems to overwrite the tooltips (they often don't make sense anymore), the rest of the mod though doesn't create errors (as far as I can tell).

And one last thing, regarding City State Distribution, in my last game I had 2 religious city states right next to each other, and the last 3rd religious one not very far off of that island. It's a bit of a pity. Shouldn't same types 'avoid' each other? No idea on the general distribution of CS though ;)
 
I understand that. Basically, connecting continents is less complex than changing the start location algorithm. :)

I reduced the minimum required size for the largest continent from 40% to 35% for the next version, which should allow fewer continental connections and more crowding. This is the "percentLargestContinent" setting in the lua file.

Basically each map divides into player territories. The game claims the best ones for major civs, then starts with citystates. Normally it just drops citystates into unclaimed territories where major civs would appear. It randomly selects citystates without paying attention to type or personality. On terra maps, it fills empty territories on the largest continent first, then moves on to the rest of the world.

The terra and continents plus scripts created an alternate method that forces a fixed number of citystates into already-occupied player territories, then puts the rest into unclaimed territories like normal. This can cause game-breaking overcrowding if the biggest continent is too small.

I returned back to the first method since it automatically adapts to random variations in the map. This map's a lot more random than most.


@mitsho
I tested the advanced start options mod you mentioned. It seems like the map options always show the last tooltip hovered over, even with normal vanilla maps. I think there's something going on with that specific mod. I'm not sure I can fix that from this map.
 
OK, I understand.

So we basically have a choice between a forced ratio like 50% on the starting continent and an automatic adaptation - which then puts as many CS's on the main continent as possible.

So the low number of offshore CS's I saw is a result of relatively large starting continents on most of the maps I've generated, having enough space to accomodate most of the 20 CS's.
And now you reduced the average size of the starting continent to squeeze the CS's out - right?

Gotta try creating a few more maps!



Just one thing: You have changed quite a few settings to increase "crowdedness" on the starting continent. I'm pretty sure we're getting close to the point where it will be very hard to survive on such maps as peaceful player. IMHO it would be best to not increase this further.

I guess you can leave this map as it is for a while now. I think a few days of real playtesting are what's needed next. We have quite a few options to easily adapt this mapscript ourselves anyway.
 
@mitsho
I tested the advanced start options mod you mentioned. It seems like the map options always show the last tooltip hovered over, even with normal vanilla maps. I think there's something going on with that specific mod. I'm not sure I can fix that from this map.

Oh no worries, it's not a 'fixable' offense. They are self-explainatory after all. Just to be sure (and since I didn't word it right the first time), the mod I'm talking about is "Really Advanced Setup" by GeneralTso. I use it mostly for advanced starts, more settlers and adjusting gold income which atm is rather pointless as the BNW vanilla AI doesn't spend its gold (some do, some don't...). Can't wait til we get there with CEP again.
 
Since the newest update (1.2.1) ocean rifts don't seem to work!

Settings: Communitas-terra, large/epic, 10civs, 20CS, atlantic+pacific, everything else on default

examples:

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EDIT: I'm using full CEP, but I've erroneously put the map in the map folder, not in the mod folder.
 

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I can confirm the problem. Only 1 ocean rift seems to be created, even when I choose Atlantic&Pacific, 2x Atlantic or 2x Pacific. Also doesn't matter whether I choose Terra or Standard.
 
Hi,

Just about to try 3.2.1 and 1.2.2 for the first time.

Im not 100% sure on the install procedure anymore though.

Obviously CEP goes in the MOD folder but does CM go in there as well or does it go in maps now?

It is still separate right? The title of the download is confusing, makes me think its an all in one.

CEP Basic (v3.2.1 Beta), and Communitas Map

Thanks
 
Do the same thing for both the map & mod: put them in the mods folder, let Civ unpack them, activate both and start a game.

There's more details here: communitas.wikia.com/wiki/Install
 
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