Community Patch for BNW

[Gazebo]

I came over this thread a few days ago, and it's great to see a community patch for Civ5.

However, here's a few notes and questions:
- Why was v2 released before v1?
- Where is the changelog?
- Is this patch developed in an open manner, with a public repository? Where can we look at the individual commits?
- Is the "community patch" a collaborative process (in the code sense, not talking about suggestion here)? If yes, how do we participate in the process? (GitHub?)
- Where is the changelog (again)?
- The install process is somewhat cumbersome. A single, unifying patch would be easier to install (include the v51VMC code in the patch)

Thanks! To be clear, the v1 posted above is not the final 'v1' - it is simply the latest effort we have completed.
Answers:
- It wasn't - it was simply for testing purposes (I'm using multiple versions on my end to test changes). The latest early version is now called v1.
- The changelog is just above - look up about four posts. Once v1 is completed, I'll have an official changelog.
- Yes; v1 will be hosted once it is complete. I want to get the core changes completed first before I host it.
- Ahem.
- This is up to Whoward's discretion. Since the foundation - the Combined DLL - is his creation (with code from others, such as myself, included in it), I will defer to him regarding how he wants to handle 3rd-party distribution of his core work. Eventually we will separate them out; for now, during pre-v1 testing, the current method will suffice.
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[Krajzen]

Is AI upgrade here the Smart AI upgrade, or is it smart AI + your own fixes? ^^ (I wanna know if downloading this means 'includes smart AI features + more stuff')

 

[Gazebo]

Is AI upgrade here the Smart AI upgrade, or is it smart AI + your own fixes? ^^ (I wanna know if downloading this means 'includes smart AI features + more stuff')

Yes, but with an important caveat: contrary to popular belief, the Smart AI dll is not terribly well done. Whoward can verify this, and I've done quite a bit of research myself into what he was trying to do. Some things were great, and are part of this dll (plus a lot of my enhancements which - ahem - are all perfect ). Other parts, however, were buggy or just plain didn't work as advertised.

So, yeah, the good bits are in. The bad bits, though, are either scrapped or, in the future, will be re-tooled to make them function correctly.
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Edit: also, I can't remember who asked/complained about it, but whoever did, the AI will now move their starting settler if there is a better plot very, very close by.

 

[Krajzen]

So... Is this patch compatible with Whoward's Borg?

 

[Gazebo]

So... Is this patch compatible with Whoward's Borg?

It isn't just compatible, it is Whoward's combined dll, but with a lot of additional work done by both of us outside of our respective personal mods.
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[Enrico Swagolo]

Is it just me or is it impossible to load saved games with this mod? After adding the files I was supposed to add to v51 of the dll mod I can't load saves with Various Mod Components at all even without the patch - I think something is wrong with them (or it's just me, or I did something wrong).

 

[Gazebo]

Is it just me or is it impossible to load saved games with this mod? After adding the files I was supposed to add to v51 of the dll mod I can't load saves with Various Mod Components at all even without the patch - I think something is wrong with them (or it's just me, or I did something wrong).

Are you trying to load save games made within the patch, or outside of it?
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[Enrico Swagolo]

Are you trying to load save games made within the patch, or outside of it?
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Within. I can make a save game with the patch and even loading the turn 0 initial save results in a crash whether I use only the Various Mod Components without community patch files or with both of them on.

I also use EUI, CSD (but I think I'd turned it off once and it still didn't work) and some small unrelated mods which are not based on DLL.
Those mods are more religion icons and one or two +civ mods, one which adds more game lengths and some map creation mods like tectonics/communitas map (only map, not the rest of the mod) and that's pretty much it.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I checked it again - Whowards various mod components works fine but only without those two files which CP tells me to put inside of it.

After replacing the regular v51 files with those from community patch no save game can ever be loaded with any of these two mods on. Something is wrong with them I think.


Is it possible to load Community Patch without those changed files? Would I be missing out on something?

 

[Gazebo]

I checked it again - Whowards various mod components works fine but only without those two files which CP tells me to put inside of it.

After replacing the regular v51 files with those from community patch no save game can ever be loaded with any of these two mods on. Something is wrong with them I think.


Is it possible to load Community Patch without those changed files? Would I be missing out on something?

Hmm, I'll look into the problem. It sounds like an error with how save data is being handled within the versioning of the DLL. I'll report back when I have a chance to figure out a solution.
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Edit: Quick fix- be glad you caught me just as I got home! I'm comfortable with the mod's stability now, so I've got it compiled together in a single mod. Now, instead of adding files to the v51 Mod Components folder, you just need to delete the DLL in that folder. Pretty simple. Don't move anything out of the Community Patch mod folder. This also fixes the savegame issue.

Link for Mod (v1)

Link for current DLL

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Now loading saves works but I find the deals very, very irrational now.

I got 12 (!!!) gold per turn for 4 or 5 horses from Augustus on Epic game speed. Wu Zetian also would agree to such offers - I know this because she was very grateful for me offering to sell my 5 horses for 8 GPT.

I often get Luxury Resources for very small amounts of money like 2 GPT or pitiful resources like 2 horses but most of the time the AI doesn't agree for 1 - 1 Luxury Resource trades anymore. The 2 GPT/small resource for Luxury trade happened between me and my DoF'd Friend so it could be intended - in fact it makes sense for her to provide me with cheap Luxury Resources when I'm fighting two enemies (Shaka and Gilgamesh) at the same time but I'm not sure if the same doesn't happen in other cases too - that would mean AI can be easily abused to give insanely good deals for the player.

People seem much more reluctant to trade luxury resources for other luxury resources. My offer of trading my Salt (I had 4) for the Sugar of someone Neutral (of which he had 3) doesn't seem irrational - and certainly the AI shouldn't want me to add Crabs and 1 horse to the trade. I guess it'd make sense for him to want to rip me off if he was swimming in happiness because I don't think we had negative diplomacy modifiers but I'm not sure if it's supposed to work like this.

AI also seems very reluctant to send Peace offers now. They still agree to them as they did before but they seem to send their own peace offers much more rarely. I could be wrong because I only played around 2 games with the mod (one I stopped playing at Renaissance, the other I may actually finish)



But overall great job.

 

[Gazebo]

Now loading saves works but I find the deals very, very irrational now.

I got 12 (!!!) gold per turn for 4 or 5 horses from Augustus on Epic game speed. Wu Zetian also would agree to such offers - I know this because she was very grateful for me offering to sell my 5 horses for 8 GPT.

I often get Luxury Resources for very small amounts of money like 2 GPT or pitiful resources like 2 horses but most of the time the AI doesn't agree for 1 - 1 Luxury Resource trades anymore. The 2 GPT/small resource for Luxury trade happened between me and my DoF'd Friend so it could be intended - in fact it makes sense for her to provide me with cheap Luxury Resources when I'm fighting two enemies (Shaka and Gilgamesh) at the same time but I'm not sure if the same doesn't happen in other cases too - that would mean AI can be easily abused to give insanely good deals for the player.

People seem much more reluctant to trade luxury resources for other luxury resources. My offer of trading my Salt (I had 4) for the Sugar of someone Neutral (of which he had 3) doesn't seem irrational - and certainly the AI shouldn't want me to add Crabs and 1 horse to the trade. I guess it'd make sense for him to want to rip me off if he was swimming in happiness because I don't think we had negative diplomacy modifiers but I'm not sure if it's supposed to work like this.

AI also seems very reluctant to send Peace offers now. They still agree to them as they did before but they seem to send their own peace offers much more rarely. I could be wrong because I only played around 2 games with the mod (one I stopped playing at Renaissance, the other I may actually finish)



But overall great job.

The Deal AI is a WIP. Trying to find a nice balance of values to make the AI less static with their offers is the current ideal.

How's combat?
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[Enrico Swagolo]

The Deal AI is a WIP. Trying to find a nice balance of values to make the AI less static with their offers is the current ideal.

How's combat?
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Combat seems alike to what it was. The AI's of Shaka and Gilgamesh (he's from a mod) still attacked my hilled city with a bunch of Spearmen together and lost most of their force - my Composite protected city wasn't ever in any danger of falling (especially since 2 of 6 surrounding tiles were Mountains).

They fell for the Worker-garrison trick which works like this:

1.Get a lone "unprotected" Worker in the range of a unit stationed inside of a city or pretty much anywhere
2.Click next turn. They'll take him with the garrison unit.
3.Go full Khorne on the guy : kill maim burn with your "hidden" Composites/Spears/whatever you have.
4.Free unit kill and you get the worker back
5.Repeat as much as you want.

Last game at first I did it completely by accident but then I tried it again - they fell for it like 5 times more and I'm sure they'd do it infinitely. Not sure if it's fixable.

Good things? They pillage a bit more than vanilla and are more annoying. They also seem to be throwing units to their certain death more than I remembered them do in Smart AI v2 - they charged a Spearman in front of my Composites and obviously it didn't end well. Yeah, Shaka annoyed me by forcing me to heal my Composite but I feel losing an unit is a bigger loss.

 

[Gazebo]

The military AI is frustratingly difficult to work with. 1UPT, while praiseworthy for a lot of things, is an utter and complete nightmare to teach to an AI. If, even with all the changes we've made, the AI is still just as dumb as vanilla, it makes me sad to say that I just don't think we'll be able to make it ever be challenging enough for playing against humans.

 

[Krajzen]

More tests, more opinions

Does AI can move and range attack in the same turn?
Does AI can use Chu Ko Nu?
What about naval invasions?
Where did you see the biggest improvement? If nowhere, well, truth is always welcome

The military AI is frustratingly difficult to work with. 1UPT, while praiseworthy for a lot of things, is an utter and complete nightmare to teach to an AI. If, even with all the changes we've made, the AI is still just as dumb as vanilla, it makes me sad to say that I just don't think we'll be able to make it ever be challenging enough for playing against humans.

Well, it seems I should really get into IT -> DLL and start my grand career as the man who will revolutionize artificial intelligence

 

[Spyhawk]

Might I suggest a better naming scheme for your beta release? Something including the date, like v1-20140605. Actually, I'm a bit lost with v2 released before v1

Which VCS are you using? (if any?)

- Ahem.

Does this mean there is no way to participate to this patch, apart from suggestion/feedback?

 

[Gazebo]

Might I suggest a better naming scheme for your beta release? Something including the date, like v1-20140605. Actually, I'm a bit lost with v2 released before v1

Which VCS are you using? (if any?)



Does this mean there is no way to participate to this patch, apart from suggestion/feedback?

The 'ahem' was referring to the question you asked twice; my answer to collaboration was

- Yes; v1 will be hosted once it is complete. I want to get the core changes completed first before I host it.

Which means that, once v1 is solid, I'll push setup a repository so that additional changes can be added from v1-on.

The 'v2' before 'v1' was addressed the other day; if you click the link above, v1 is now what is out. Like I said, it was simply a factor of being asked to post something and my own internal testing scheme.
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[Spyhawk]

Gazebo> Thanks! Sorry I had to ask, but the development actually looks like it is a "behind closed door" model, albeit with source available. Your previous answer didn't address my original question, since "hosting" source is very different from setting up an open development process.

I'd still suggest you to use a "date based" numbering scheme for your internal work.

 

[whoward69]

If you need the granularity of date, you also need to add hours and minutes.

There is a very simple solution to version numbers - sequentially ascending integers.

1) They are free
2) Even at one release per hour, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year (and I've worked on projects that come close to that) there are still enough versions in the typical 32-bit signed int for over 200,000 years of continuous development

Date/Time stamps are something that should appear in build details in the logs (and are already there in the code base)

 

[Gazebo]

Gazebo> Thanks! Sorry I had to ask, but the development actually looks like it is a "behind closed door" model, albeit with source available. Your previous answer didn't address my original question, since "hosting" source is very different from setting up an open development process.

I'd still suggest you to use a "date based" numbering scheme for your internal work.

No worries. I'll probably stick with the v1, v2, v3 etc. model (as per Whoward), since it is easiest to do in Modbuddy. It'll be open (and has been thus far) – I welcome anyone that wants to help with this project, as Whoward and I can't do it alone.

Also, for those asking about naval invasion escorts:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zq2izye3lzs1uyj/Screenshot%202014-06-05%2012.21.33.png

Mmm...
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