[GS] Comparison Between UUs--Pitati Archer, Maryannu, Immortal

Maryannu are completely awful to face if you're trying to fight egypt early game. Those chariots absolutely shred warriors and even swords. Especially when the AI has that nasty production advantage.
For the record, if a unit has +10 str, which the maryannu does over the standard archer, then it's 1.5x at dealing damage and 1.5x at taking damage, so we would expect a price of ~2.25x to be about balanced. For a UU, it should be more powerful in some way. So lowering the cost was the right move, since it was very close to balanced with archers at 120/140.
Of course in real Civ games, that's a huge cost to bear in the ancient era because 3 of them is worth way more than 3x just 1 of them.
 
Yea, but how many ciites can they capture?

Pitali Archer: 0
Egypt's Chariot: 0
Immortal: <0

x/0 = infinity

Therefore the immortal is infinitely better than either unit.

Also, another FACT. How many Pitalis or Egyptian Chariots can you build when you are Persia? You can't. The Immortal is again better.

Finally, do you know what immortal actually means? They can't die. It's clearly a bug in the game that they can.

Going by this logic I say the Sea Dog and the Phalanx are the best units, because 2 leaders can use them; all others can only be used once. However, the Sea Dog would beat the Phalanx because they would drown in the ocean. Who is silly enough to fight on top of the ocean with spears and shields anyways?

Faulty logic since Sea Dogs also can't take cities!
 
Faulty logic since Sea Dogs also can't take cities!
But maybe that is because it is fear of Sea Dogs that means all cities are built on land. If Sea Dogs had never existed perhaps we would have also built them on the water. Thus Sea Dogs have removed some 70% of the world's surface from consideration, that is a very powerful unit.
 
Anyway, you forgot the Varu which tramples over both of them!
 
What many people don't know is that the Maryannu is counted as a ranged unit, not mounted. So the Agoge policy card which can be required very early actually boosts Maryannu production as well.
 
What many people don't know is that the Maryannu is counted as a ranged unit, not mounted.
It is in fact both. It is raged and counted a a light chariot even though it replaces a heavy (I thought they could have both now, in fact I am fairly sure they can because I played them).. following are all the relevant snippets. The maryannu is still 120 in vanilla and R&F but 90 in GS. So they still ignore ZOC
Not sure if both 50% cards work on em though. Will have to test

<Row UnitType="UNIT_EGYPTIAN_CHARIOT_ARCHER" AiType="UNITTYPE_CAVALRY"/>
<Row UnitType="UNIT_EGYPTIAN_CHARIOT_ARCHER" AiType="UNITTYPE_RANGED"/>
<Row CivUniqueUnitType="UNIT_EGYPTIAN_CHARIOT_ARCHER" ReplacesUnitType="UNIT_HEAVY_CHARIOT"/>

<Row Type="UNIT_EGYPTIAN_CHARIOT_ARCHER" Tag="CLASS_LIGHT_CHARIOT"/>

<Row UnitType="UNIT_EGYPTIAN_CHARIOT_ARCHER" Cost="120" Maintenance="2" BaseMoves="2" BaseSightRange="2" ZoneOfControl="false" Domain="DOMAIN_LAND" Combat="25" RangedCombat="35" Range="2" FormationClass="FORMATION_CLASS_LAND_COMBAT" PromotionClass="PROMOTION_CLASS_RANGED" AdvisorType="ADVISOR_CONQUEST" Name="LOC_UNIT_EGYPTIAN_CHARIOT_ARCHER_NAME" Description="LOC_UNIT_EGYPTIAN_CHARIOT_ARCHER_DESCRIPTION" PurchaseYield="YIELD_GOLD" MandatoryObsoleteTech="TECH_BALLISTICS" TraitType="TRAIT_CIVILIZATION_UNIT_EGYPTIAN_CHARIOT_ARCHER" PrereqTech="TECH_THE_WHEEL"/>

<Row Type="ABILITY_LIGHT_CHARIOT" Tag="CLASS_LIGHT_CHARIOT"/>

<Where UnitType="UNIT_EGYPTIAN_CHARIOT_ARCHER"/>
<Set>
<Cost>90</Cost>
<Description>LOC_UNIT_EGYPTIAN_CHARIOT_ARCHER_EXPANSION2_DESCRIPTION</Description>
<Maintenance>1</Maintenance>
</Set>

Tag="CLASS_RANGED_CAVALRY"/>
<Row Type="ABILITY_IGNORE_ZOC" Tag="CLASS_LIGHT_CAVALRY"/>
<Row Type="ABILITY_LIGHT_CHARIOT"
 
If both policy cards work on them (and similarly with other "ranged cavalry" units like Saka or Keshig), then that'd be a huge boost to them too. Not that you can necessarily slot in both cards very often, but gives you flexibility to swap out the cards without losing a production boost.
 
Interesting post. I understand that in order to compare theoretically some units stats, one is compelled to isolate the scope to those numbers only. However I feel as many others do that the functional context is important.
Here those units are ultimatelyaand functionally meant to :
* Support my goal to rush a neighbor
And/or
* Being able to ensure a defense against an early rush.
Depending of my chosen strat.

To validate the relative efficiency with regard to those two goals, it's difficult to isolate from the full context, which civ carry those units, which synergies exists with cards and government.

For instance the cost of Egypt uu might be a flaw. But the placement bias of Egypt (I assume is on floodplain rivers ) should put you in relatively flat land where those chariot are at their best. Most of those contextual information have been laid in the thread so my wall of text might not be totally relevant :)
 
Mining -> Wheel. Builder first, then ssettler, to mine a resource. Can get Maryannus out at beginning of classical. 4 of them can easily take out a neighbor.

A very good UU. Only problem: requires a relatively isolated start where you don't get rushed.
 
Interesting post. I understand that in order to compare theoretically some units stats, one is compelled to isolate the scope to those numbers only. However I feel as many others do that the functional context is important.
Here those units are ultimatelyaand functionally meant to :
* Support my goal to rush a neighbor
And/or
* Being able to ensure a defense against an early rush.
Depending of my chosen strat.

To validate the relative efficiency with regard to those two goals, it's difficult to isolate from the full context, which civ carry those units, which synergies exists with cards and government.

For instance the cost of Egypt uu might be a flaw. But the placement bias of Egypt (I assume is on floodplain rivers ) should put you in relatively flat land where those chariot are at their best. Most of those contextual information have been laid in the thread so my wall of text might not be totally relevant :)

I wouldn't really consider Egypt's starting location. Since while they might have lots of nearby flat land themselves, if the goal is to rush a neighbour stuck in the jungle then their chariots will fail.

I do think when evaluating the civ should come into play, which gives Pitati's an extra bonus due to the XP gain and production bonuses. You also need to factor in upgrade costs - Immortals and Pitati can be upgraded into, whereas Maryannus need to be hard-built. Given that, I think that would give Pitati's the small edge. My guess is a lot of people in the other thread voted down the Maryannu without realizing that it has definitely gotten better, since previously it was a pretty terrible unit that I'm pretty sure lily claimed was a net negative, since it meant you couldn't do war chariot -> knight rush with them.
 
There is all types of missing or misleading statements in this thread.
For a start a Pitati is not in reality 70 prod because Nubia get 50% discount to producing all ranged units. You can build slingers faster than scouts with Nubia from turn 1!
Nor does the starting thread mention the 50% XP for units that get XP more often than melee troops... those plink plink plink sounds are kerching kerching kerching because Pitati archers do get to double shot (not as fast as Warakaq which get 100% XP to get to +20 at level 3 promo) and both the double shot and defence against districts do really help them as xbows and field cannons own.
The OP thread does not mention the Maryannu only has 1 gold maintenance like the Pitati while the Immortal has 2
And it this state of the game a lot of cities are not walled and those that are will fall quickly to xbows, even without double shot.
The 2/4 move preference lily has over a 3 move is a personal preference, it is not scientific. I much prefer my pitati in rough ground to be able to move 3 to other rough ground thank you.

For me personally a Pitati is damn cheap in huge numbers and expect to lose a few because you will. but get them to xbows with high xp is what it is all about and the 3 mp will allow a high survival rate.but they do die.
The maryannu is just expensive in comparison and when I lose one I feel it a lot more and on higher levels this can happen nowadays. Good strong shot but I always find keeping it in open ground annoys me and limits it. They do have only 1 maintenance though.
The Immortal is handy but it is an archers super archer really, one that will take more damage and not be so vulnerable. 30 strength is half a sword.

For those that mock ranged against cities, mock thee not. For a start you reduce that 100% wall down before attacking with melee even with 2-3 archers in a single turn so that when your melee attack it does better damage and has a higher survive rate due to being damaged less and the city attacking the archers as a better target.... combined arms is a good option for taking cities.

Having played all 3 I must say the Pitati is better purely because of where it comes out at xbow. more promotion and less production cost. the MP value of both the chariot and the pitati is a benefit I would take over being half a sword and and archer combo because I like playing combined arms, not a false gestalt. When I am an archer I am not a sword, when I am a sword I am not an archer... what other troops do I bring?... swords? so why did I get these rather than archers for 40 production more? Bring more archers... OMG these are weak swords killed by chariots.... and remind me why I am paying 2 gold for these.
 
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If both policy cards work on them (and similarly with other "ranged cavalry" units like Saka or Keshig), then that'd be a huge boost to them too. Not that you can necessarily slot in both cards very often, but gives you flexibility to swap out the cards without losing a production boost.
You would need political philosophy, which prevents rushing them for an early fight.So indeed swapping advantage more than actual double benefit.
 
Having played all 3 I must say the Pitati is better purely because of where it comes out at xbow. more promotion and less production cost. the MP value of both the chariot and the pitati is a benefit I would take over being half a sword and and archer combo because I like playing combined arms, not a false gestalt. When I am an archer I am not a sword, when I am a sword I am not an archer... what other troops do I bring?... swords? so why did I get these rather than archers for 40 production more? Bring more archers... OMG these are weak swords killed by chariots.... and remind me why I am paying 2 gold for these.

I'd never pretend that Immortals were as good as Pitatis, or Legions or even the Ngao Mbeba but I'd still take them over basic swordsmen. The fact that they require less iron would do it all by itself but when combined with Oligarchy and a GG their ranged attack becomes a real weapon. I'm not at all a fan of the Maryannu Chariot personally, but maybe I should give it another chance. One way or the other it's a strange comparison for me because these units behave so differently.
 
it's a strange comparison
It is a spill over debate from the UU rankings thread because you cannot discuss things there.
What seems not understood by the OP is that not all votes are rational with the rules. There is some tactics involved in the voting... in this case people downvoting eagles and Pítati when immortals are still around and Maryannu have gone a long time before.
 
I wouldn't really consider Egypt's starting location. Since while they might have lots of nearby flat land themselves, if the goal is to rush a neighbour stuck in the jungle then their chariots will fail.

I do think when evaluating the civ should come into play, which gives Pitati's an extra bonus due to the XP gain and production bonuses. You also need to factor in upgrade costs - Immortals and Pitati can be upgraded into, whereas Maryannus need to be hard-built. Given that, I think that would give Pitati's the small edge. My guess is a lot of people in the other thread voted down the Maryannu without realizing that it has definitely gotten better, since previously it was a pretty terrible unit that I'm pretty sure lily claimed was a net negative, since it meant you couldn't do war chariot -> knight rush with them.
It of just to give one example of contextual information. Obviously the xp+prod boost of nubia is another, and probably the most impactful one.

That being said, the movement boost in defense is pretty useful. You can get cheap on your defense by having a couple of chariot assisting a walled bait-city.
Plus they are the occasional flat enemy city on your border,ripe for the pillaging those chariots excel at under the right circumstances.
 
It is a spill over debate from the UU rankings thread because you cannot discuss things there.
What seems not understood by the OP is that not all votes are rational with the rules. There is some tactics involved in the voting... in this case people downvoting eagles and Pítati when immortals are still around and Maryannu have gone a long time before.

Understood. The Ngao Mbeba went ridiculously early while a bunch of nonsense stayed. Those elimination games are fun but they reflect popular opinion far more than they do the effectiveness of the unit. That last pole didn't seem to realize that mounted units can't use rams or siege towers. IMHO any swordsmen replacement now beats the Mamluk.
 
It is a spill over debate from the UU rankings thread because you cannot discuss things there.
What seems not understood by the OP is that not all votes are rational with the rules. There is some tactics involved in the voting... in this case people downvoting eagles and Pítati when immortals are still around and Maryannu have gone a long time before.

That's why I don't bother voting. The entire exercise is pointless. I voted in the previous one where it came down to Eagle Warriors, Pitati Archers, and Warcarts. I knew this one would turn out the same and it appears I'm right. It will probably be: Pitati, Warcarts, Eagles. Just like last time.

I had thought of voting with the sole intent to down vote the Pitatis the entire time, just to break up the rankings, but it's not worth my time or energy.
 
What many people don't know is that the Maryannu is counted as a ranged unit, not mounted. So the Agoge policy card which can be required very early actually boosts Maryannu production as well.

Wow, I could have used this info earlier. :( :lol: Gonna ditch my Monty game to do Egypt again.
 
I think one consideration that the forum has struggled with for some time is whether we should consider the trait that we are evaluating in the context of the civ and the game that it is in, or rather evaluate the trait in a vacuum and not account for the compatibility and synergy provided by other attributes of the civ. I've always been an advocate for trying to break down aspects of the game for what they are by themselves and disregard how they are better because of how some other elements of the civ compound additional bonuses that aren't unique to that particular unit/building.etc. As such, I find that some units are given more credit than they are worth, such as the saka HA and the impi, because other bonuses of the civ let you do things with it that aren't specific to that unit. Other units, only one I can think of off the top of my head is the minas geraes, may be underappreciated as while the rest of Brazil's bonuses are fair to good (being quite conservative) they don't add anything to the unit.

Having said that, I now need to completely contradict myself as my comparison of these three units needs to account for the other bonuses of the civs. As @DWilson points out, it may be a patch or something that I don't have but the production cost of MCA is not 90, which has always been the one and only argument that I've had against it - my sole defining characteristic of the MCA is that it is prohibitively expensive, Other than that I love it - quick, tanky, and hits hard. It's just that you can't build that many of them and have the option of building 2-3 archers for every MCA, which tends to be a better option at that stage of the game.

But getting back to the context, the other two respective civs each have multiple bonuses that complement the unit so well, and passively not actively, that it becomes necessary to incorporate them. As for the pitati, you mentioned it's cost but didn't account for the civ ability that greatly reduces it; unless some other civ gains access to building that unit the bonus will always be applied and the cost could basically be considered 1/3 less. Also, Nubia's bonus to mines creates additional production and gold, both of which can be used to further increase production. Finally the 20-40% discount to districts means you can re-allocate some of the production from them to more pitati and the districts that you're building combined with the mining bonuses gives Nubia a strong faith- and gold- generation game both of which can supplement production. As for Persia, both the trade route bonuses and the UI give him a strong gold generation game as well, but the key factor is the additional movement for 10 turns, meaning that for a good portion of the blitz they're movement is 4, which moves them from the worst of the three to the best of them. Egypt, however, doesn't have much in the way of other bonuses complementing the unit. I guess you could make the same argument for re-allocation of hammers since districts and wonders are discounted that I made for Nubia, but it's 15% instead of 20% and only applies to river placement - which situationally (although I find frequently) negates the bonus; I'd rather have a campus have mountainside adjacency than a 15% cost discount and often you have to choose between the two. You could also make an argument that the UI helps with faith generation which can supplement production, but that only really picks up if they have world wonder adjacency which implies a very heavy production schedule for Egypt. And as for extra gold for Egypt's trade routes - you can't control other civs sending them to you, and sacrifice production for gold if you're sending externals instead of internals, so I tend to not do that.

But yeah, I'd agree with you that if the MCA had a cost of 90 and evaluating in a complete vacuum of the other aspects of the related civilization, then yeah they'd be the best of the three. Except that in my games 90 isn't the cost and the other bonuses of the civs are so passively incorporated (except perhaps the movement bonus from surprise wars) that the other traits can't really be divorced from being part of the unit.
There is the question 'do you view the unit alone or do the Civ bonuses/synergy count towards the value of the unit'?
I think the latter. Because while it is fun to isolate the units from the Civ it is owned by, in practice one will NEVER be in a situation where they can use this unit outside of the Civ they're assigned to (mods notwithstanding). So it isn't really a question of whether to consider the unit alone or not, but more of whether you WANT to discuss the unit alone or not.

This poses another problem; because how do you analyse how a unit functions without the contribution of the Civ? We've seen units that sound good on paper (e.g. Samurai alone look REALLY good! But they're Medieval Era units, so how does the game play with melee units at that time? Where are they found on the tree? And so on...).

So really, looking at a unit in TOTAL isolation is very tricky. Especially when you want to talk about which one is stronger... I go for the Pitati Archer
 
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