[GS] Comparison Between UUs--Pitati Archer, Maryannu, Immortal

[SammyKhalifa]

I think you can isolate and compare uniques from the rest of the civ to an extent . . .

but the archer is always cheaper than it says it is.

 

[DWilson]

When doing an elimination thread, I personally ignore other bonuses, because we aren't voting on them. In reverse, I wouldn't say that the Pitati Archer is an advantage of Ta-Seti, it's an advantage of the unique unit. There is nuance, as the other bonuses may make you more likely to use the unique unit, which is fair game to me. But if a separate bonus is counted as being part of the unit itself, then to me that would mean they have less of said bonus itself.

The way I try to do it is to consider what would the civ look like without that unique. Without the Pitati Archer, Nubia would have an Archer that costs 40 prod, has 25 ranged strength, 15 melee, with two movement, and that gains experience faster. In contrast, the PA has 5 extra ranged strength, 2 extra melee strength, 1 extra movement, and only 6.7 prod extra cost. That makes it a pretty good unit, but is not an insanely improved unit (like the Eagle Warrior and War-Cart). As I say this, I realize that I too am probably overrating the unit whose bonuses themselves are not insane.

The Longship is worse, as it only offers an extra 5 strength and 1 extra movement in coastal water compared to a Norwegian galley.

 

[MarigoldRan]

The extra movement is the primary reason why the Pitati is such a big deal. Even if it was just a normal archer with an extra movement, it would still be an excellent UU.

 

[DWilson]

A good unit, yes. A very good or, even, excellent unit, still yes. But top three? Number one? I am not so sure.

 

[Architect]

The problem is pangea Deity maps are just such a cheap way to exploit units like the pitiful archer. If you have some space or water between you and the other AIs not even 3 move is going to make a difference. They just can't get to their targets with the army they need to support them in time before they start to run out of steam. Dumb AI next to you in pangea? gg Nub is the achievement name for a reason. Try pitiful archers on a seven seas map where you don't have Deity AI on your border and instead have actual space to expand and for me they are just a fast moving archer that has to wait on the rest of the army to do anything.

Honestly I have not played Egypt in GS but it is on my list. Had I realized that the Maryannu was only 90 production now I would have played them sooner. Still a ranged unit though. So for the question the OP makes I would say the Immortal is the best unit because its a melee unit which is way more useful than a ranged unit. I like playing builder games which explore all the eras so I would rather have great mech infantry than great machine guns.

 

[BenitoChavez]

I just played a short game with Egypt to test out the Maryannu. The 90 production cost makes all the difference. They were vastly underrated in the elimination thread.

I rushed out 3 Maryannu, supported by 4 warriors as a front line and just mowed through Soliman's army. I must have killed 20 of the AI units including 2 shotting horsemen once I got a few promotions on each Maryannu.

However, like all ancient era units they have their weaknesses. The first problem is that they can't deal with walled cities very well. They don't deal enough damage before the AI sends another wave of units that you have to mow down and by then your units have taken a few shots from the city and are weak. The second problem is a matter of distance. The AI more often that not doesn't start right next to you. In this particular game my nearest neighbor was Soliman and our capitals were 15-20 tiles away with a partial mountain range and a city state between us. I brought four warriors and a battering ram in anticipation of dealing with walled cities but by the time I reached the AI and declared war the AI had heavy chariots and horsemen. My warriors were taking so much damage that I had to constantly pull them back and I lost two in the process.

 

[Victoria]

in practice one will NEVER be in a situation where they can use this unit outside of the Civ they're assigned to (mods notwithstanding).

Always be careful about saying never, especially in capitals, if you look at the linked item on levy troops you will find you can face them outside their civ... and I have faced Janissaries this way. To be fair I am not sure which unit you are talking about. But certainly some units can be in CS.

just played a short game with Egypt to test out the Maryannu. The 90 production cost makes all the difference. They were vastly underrated in the elimination thread.

that sounds very similar to the game I had but I lost a chariot to ambushing horsemen and nearly another.

 

[UWHabs]

Always be careful about saying never, especially in capitals, if you look at the linked item on levy troops you will find you can face them outside their civ... and I have faced Janissaries this way. To be fair I am not sure which unit you are talking about. But certainly some units can be in CS.
that sounds very similar to the game I had but I lost a chariot to ambushing horsemen and nearly another.

And if you're talking about Maryannu being a "Ranged cavalry" unit, does that imply that Mongolia can capture them too? Not that that really should be a factor in how good they are, but another case where a unit can potentially show up unexpectedly.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

And if you're talking about Maryannu being a "Ranged cavalry" unit, does that imply that Mongolia can capture them too? Not that that really should be a factor in how good they are, but another case where a unit can potentially show up unexpectedly.

Have anyone using a sea dog to capture a Minas Geras?

 

[Victoria]

Have anyone using a sea dog to capture a Minas Geras?

Yep, sea dog Armada, was easy
I have also had a sea dog wiped out by one.

 

[Victoria]

@ lily you compare vary and Toa in the main thread

Let's compare Varu with Toa.
Good things for Varu: +4 strength, raw strength applies to all city's defense.
Good things for Toa: +10 against anti-cav (Varu -10), can use battering ram/siege tower, can build Pa
.....
Furthermore, Toa cost 5 iron, though the amount is small, this means that you shall first detect iron, then find an iron mine, settle besides it, send a builder to mine it, wait for a few turns to let iron grow, finally you can start building Toa. So although Toa can be upgraded to, Toa still comes much later than Varu because of these time-costly necessary processes.
...

So Toa do not require Iron and can use Oligarchy to make up the +4 of the Varu
So what does that leave?
A Toa is 0 gold maintenance while a Varu is 2
A Toa has +2 MP at sea which is hugely useful.
A Toa has +5 combat at sea
A Toa Has a Pa , can repair tile and can heal in a pa
A Toa is +10 vs Anti Cav (great for barbarians) while a Varu is -10 vs Anti Cav.. and the AI uses pikes a lot now, quite early.
A Toa upgrades to a musket while a Varu has to wait for a tank

Both are -5 to enemies, cost 120 production and have no resource requirement
We will call promotion trees the same although I feel the infantry one is better.

You can get a Varu 110 science earlier
A war of territorial expansion will give +2 MP and +5 strength to a Varu for 10 turns.
A toa starts at -4 combat compared to the Varu but the +4 oligarchy card corrects the difference. Still a small negative.
Effectively +4 against walls until the Toa has Oligarchy

You can vote how you want but please be accurate with your arguments. Both this argument and the start of this threads argument were not balanced.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

@ lily you compare vary and Toa in the main thread

So Toa do not require Iron and can use Oligarchy to make up the +4 of the Varu
So what does that leave?
A Toa is 0 gold maintenance while a Varu is 2
A Toa has +2 MP at sea which is hugely useful.
A Toa has +5 combat at sea
A Toa Has a Pa , can repair tile and can heal in a pa
A Toa is +10 vs Anti Cav (great for barbarians) while a Varu is -10 vs Anti Cav.. and the AI uses pikes a lot now, quite early.
A Toa upgrades to a musket while a Varu has to wait for a tank

Both are -5 to enemies, cost 120 production and have no resource requirement
We will call promotion trees the same although I feel the infantry one is better.

You can get a Varu 110 science earlier
A war of territorial expansion will give +2 MP and +5 strength to a Varu for 10 turns.
A toa starts at -4 combat compared to the Varu but the +4 oligarchy card corrects the difference. Still a small negative.
You can vote how you want but please be accurate with your arguments. Both this argument and the start of this threads argument were not balanced.

I guess they cost 5 iron. At least in XML it says that.

Upgrade? If you wait for upgrade why do you use UU? When I'm using UU I never care about upgrades. If you want to use UU then you make the best use in their best era. If you wish to use upgraded units then whether they are upgraded from UU or not makes no sense.

Oligarchy? When you're using Oligarchy's +4 you already suffer from not benefiting from Autocracy/Classical Republic. They provide better bonuses for the growth of your empire. Even when I'm rushing with swordsman I use Autocracy/Classical Rep.

Yeah Toa+Oligarchy has the same strength as Varu, but that means the Varu side gets much more yields from Autocracy so they can produce more units.

Also Monarchy don't come that late, many times when you have monarchy you're still using Varu/Toa, maybe the Oligarchy +4 cost you 2 policy slots. That's definitely not a small difference!

Why do you ignore the city defense bonus for Varu? That bonus applies to all cities! If you have Varu all your cities are 4 strength stronger than Civ with Toa, at least before knight.

+5 combat strength at sea? Is that useful? Will you expose your land units to enemy sea warfares in sea???

 

[Victoria]

As I said, they need no iron so if you just look at spreadsheets and do not play then you get things wrong. The in game civilopaedia and the wiki both say no resources and I play them

O pla playing them from, you stack the toa galley, now if you played the navy game well you would then know the enemy would be -5 and the galley +2 for flanking and support. The fact that a Toa is faster than an enemy galley means you can block its path and the +10 the embarked unit gets makes it as strong as a galley.

A UU survives better and gets good XP, the point is your variety gets useless when pikes come and the enemy now does make pikes.

I’ll build the army with Autocracy, get my tier 2 government building with classic republic then swap to Oligarchy, I have said that in another thread so am not making it up just for you. This gives me the best of all worlds.

Varu are +4 against cities as opposed to a toa yes and that is important, I will update the post, at least I own up to mistakes Note I am not saying a Toa is better here, I respect your choice, just saying we have to be accurate. However this +4 against walls is only there until a Toa gets Oligarchy so is a small thing.

This naval thing is not small by the way. The Maori can build quads from turn 1, they can dominate the sea early and when Toas come along sea invasions are so fast, my troops are not moving 1 tile across rough ground, they are moving 4 at sea.

Here my civ has no iron but I can build a Toa. This is because they have not specified what resource the Toa needs. and therefore thats is the state of the unit. The fact that the Maori's had not discovered iron and the Toas still beat muskets means it is a shame their intent is to include this resource but it is not there.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

O pla playing them from, you stack the toa galley, now if you played the navy game well you would then know the enemy would be -5 and the galley +2 for flanking and support. The fact that a Toa is faster than an enemy galley means you can block its path and the +10 the embarked unit gets makes it as strong as a galley.


View attachment 531663

Varu have the same -5 effect and also count as flanking support. Not a Toa unique I guess.

 

[Victoria]

It is the +2MP and +5 combat strength I quote as the difference at sea in the comparison post.
It is this +2 MP at sea you are highly underrating.

 

[Karmah]

So we switched to TOA VS Vary now. Fine by me, we said it all about the original subject. This should be interesting as I never played India. Let me warm up the popcorn !

 

[MarigoldRan]

Varu has a much better sound when it's attacking than the Toa.

 

[UWHabs]

Personally I don't value the bonuses at sea much, but that's in large part because early on I rarely if ever float units to war. Maybe I should do it more often, or as Kupe there's certainly more times that might make sense to.

I'd probably rank the Toa higher because the ability to repair tiles is a really nice bonus, plus the fact that the Toa can be upgraded into would tend to get them online a little earlier, and the lack of maintenance is a big boost too. But the Varu with the territorial expansion boost is a real menace to everything around it.

 

[Victoria]

I never played India. Let me warm up the popcorn !

You should, Varu are fun.
I played Gandhi the other day. The amenities for religion is fantastic. It made a big difference to my game and was the first Gandhi game I have enjoyed. They are worth playing after the update.

I rarely if ever float units to war.

Once you start doing it you realise how strong it is with +2 MP and you can also do it from very early with warriors if required. And it is also an escape route. So underrated.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

It is the +2MP and +5 combat strength I quote as the difference at sea in the comparison post.
It is this +2 MP at sea you are highly underrating.

The problem is that when I am comparing units I ignore other Civ or policy bonuses. If we wish to see "which UU is better" we shall only compare UU, not UA+UB+UU. It you wrap up everything, then when we're discussing "which UU is good", shall we say "Hwacha"? Why Hwacha is good? Because the Civ it belongs to can build Saewon! The ability to build Saewon makes Hwacha best, do you agree with this logic?

I disagree, we shall separate these Civ abilities and only focus on the unit we're discussing. So no sea MP for Toa and no territory expansion bonus for Varu and we do fair comparison.

If you insist on mix up everything comparing as a whole, I'd like to point out that Maori cannot harvest, which is a very negative UA, making it nothing comparable to other Civs. So Toa is worst, that's the result under your rule of "comparing as a whole"