Competing VC's

Looks nice, not much trouble getting rid of immortal AI stack. I notice we're at 6 cities, I'm not sure I remember correctly, but does that mean the spot up north is not settled?

Dhoomstriker said:
We will have to keep a VERY close eye on AI teching on a turn-by-turn basis, in order to be ready to cancel our Ivory trades as soon as an AI learns Horseback Riding. Most of the AIs know Construction, so watching for them learning Horseback Riding is going to be the "trigger point" for cancelling our Ivory trades.
Ruff, if you're reading, that would be some useful BUG feature ;)
 
I think we're only giving ivory to Willem right now. He's an excellent trading buddy. It looks like the war is going well and we might be able to actually grab a city from HRE :lol:
 
Looks nice, not much trouble getting rid of immortal AI stack. I notice we're at 6 cities, I'm not sure I remember correctly, but does that mean the spot up north is not settled?
Correct. I was hoping that we'd have success in capturing an AI City or two if we went hard-core military for a while.

While it would be nice to have a second Fish Resource to trade around, in place of an Ivory trade, the Fish wasn't even a Magical Fish, so it would be some time before that theoretical City claimed.

It's still a good idea to settle it, but it won't happen during my turnset.


Also, let's say that I manage to Lightbulb Philosophy. Would Pacifism be a bad idea when stockpiling Military Units?


I think we're only giving ivory to Willem right now.
Unless I made another Ivory trade or two. :mischief: Honestly, I can't remember, but I remember doing a few Resource trades, so they might have included Ivory.


He's an excellent trading buddy.
Yet, we cannot bribe him into the war, since doing so costs a tech. I suppose that if someone were to save up 2000+ Gold, we could bribe him, but doing so would be pretty counter-productive, as we couldn't "buy" the Gold back with a future trade.

Thus, even our "allies" (should I even say "ally"? it appears that no one else likes us :p) are not really our allies, so keeping War Elephants out of their hands would be a good idea. The last that I checked, only Justinian had Horseback Riding but we were definitely not trading Ivory to him.


It looks like the war is going well and we might be able to actually grab a city from HRE :lol:
It is my goal to try.
 
We learn Alphabet and Lightbulb Philosophy, founding Taoism. The Taoist Missionary was successfully spread in our capital, since, presumably, we'll want Monasteries for extra Science in our future-Bureaucratic capital in a non-tech-trading game.
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Justinian, after having stopped his war with Hatshepsut, seems to have gone into Missionary-spam mode. He spread Buddhism to Bombay on this turn and, as you can see, is sending another Missionary out, presumably to us again.
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After a bit of Bomarding at Augsburg, here is the situation after our units have "caught up" with the leading units and have their movement points ready. After having ambushed some Chariots and a Spearman that were coming at us, it appears that Charle was not ready for us to hit this City... as you can see, there is a Longbowman but it is not inside of the City. Muahahaha. I decided that with many of the defenders being Catapults and Chariots (0% defensive bonus), it was better to attack now than to wait for the Longbowman and Swordsman 1W of the City to enter Augsburg, plus whatever other reinforcements may have been coming.
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It turns out that the attack went beautifully. In fact, there WERE several reinforcements on the Road 1S of the City (3 City-Raider-promoted Cats and a Swordsman), which I also cleaned up. I left the Longbowman and Swordsman 1W of the City where they were--I didn't feel like attacking a Hills-defending Longbowman. Charle's Workers are just out of reach, but we don't really need more Workers, honestly, as ours have pretty much run out of useful things to do.
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We should probably cancel our Ivory deal with Sitting Bull in 2 turns, since he has learned Horseback Riding and that's when the deal can be cancelled.


We also have an Ivory trade with Willem, but he hasn't learned Horseback Riding yet. So, keep an eye out for him learning it!


I didn't know what the next player would want to build in Augsburg so I set it to Wealth.


In keeping with our tradition, I also did not move the units on the last turn of play, since we are currently in a war. This approach seems to be a good one to use, so I stuck with it.


I explored most of the world with a Fast Worker, but stopped at Hatty's borders since they are Closed. Theoretically, we could Open Borders with her for 10 turns and then cancel them after having zipped around her Road network using our Fast Worker, without upsetting anyone who treats her as their Worst Enemy. However, I left this decision up to the next player.


I also did not revolt into Pacifism, but the option is there to do so, if we would like to. I'm not quite sure how the extra "Unit Costs" actually work when under Pacifism, so I was hesitant to make the switch. Does anyone know? For example, do you pay 1 Gold per Turn for EVERY unit that you control? Is it only for Military Units? Is it maybe only for Military Units (or every unit) that are above and beyond the normal Unit Cost = 0 mark?


Oh yeah, since we just finished learning Horseback Riding, we should now be able to build... dut nu nu nuhhhhhh: War Elephants!
 
Got it. Will comment tomorrow. Looking good :thumbsup:

I'm not 100% about pacifism and unit upkeep cost but I think it just doubles the amount you spend on units anyway (F2 screen figure). There is no difference between military and non-military units.
 
Oh yeah, if you do decide to use Pacifism, remember to pay attention to the fact that not all of our Cities are Hindu. For example, Bombay has Judaism and Buddhism but no Hinduism, while Hinduism is our current State Religion.
 
iirc its 1 gold per turn per military unit, but of course the normal civic cost is removed so it ends up costing less than that compared to the other civics. Looking at the SS, Bombay needs to get some culture going to reclaim the banana, with the Heroic Epic there I'd also build globe theater for mass drafting. Or build National Epic for GPs :) Of course both would take a detour on techs to get to, glad the trees i left at Bombay are still standing, about only place i saved them for health :)
 
Looks like mysty knows he's up, but roster calls anyways:

Habitus (played)
rolo (played)
shyuhe (played)
Dhoom (played)
mysty (UP)

I'll roll up the order for set #3 after mysty finishes his turn.

As for the game, looks like the war is going well. When do we want to take peace with HRE? I imagine we don't want to continue fighting protective LBs too long with our sucky units. He doesn't own any wonders...
 
I'm afraid I'm not too happy with the situation at closer look.

Is it correct that I can switch production off a build that has no hammers invested? I ask because those monasteries don't help at all. Example delhi (#1 science city): building a monastery gives roughly +4 beakers. At 100%. Which we can afford for maybe 1/3 of the turns. So we get around 1 beaker per turn for 60 hammers. For that amount of hammers, I can send those citizens on holidays for 54 turns while having them build research on the other 6. The only reason I build monasteries is when it's from the AP religion or in border cities.

I don't see us recapturing those bananas (or the iron near varanasi) peacefully. Both cities are ~40 turns away from border pop and around 40% ours.

Our next GP is 40 turns away. Our (by far) best GPFarm has the note "Build Heroic Epic here"......

Is it correct that I *could* change research to something else?

Regarding the war situation, we can't give him back any cities, right? That means we'll bleed cash for augsburg forever and not even have it connected to our empire. One remedy that springs to mind is a short trip to babylon. Nippur and Opis are not on hills and not far into the border. Babylon is on a hill but would be the icing on the cake, with its shrine and all those other shiny wonders. By capturing those cities we'll have a proper empire. Nippur could be taken out with a few HAs, Opis as well I expect, and both on the first turn of war. Opis looks to be culturebombed btw. Could be worthwile teching archery and upgrade a few chariots or build HAs. Main stack with infantry/cats/phants could head for babylon.

As we can't get any techs in exchange of peace I don't see a reason to keep up the war with charly.

I couldn't slot in any builds in the city building Moai to get more hammers into moai by whipping those other things? Like a WB for tundra city?

All those cottages make me feel sick. I understand we can't build any other improvement but still... Guess we built too many workers.
 
As for the game, looks like the war is going well. When do we want to take peace with HRE?
When we start to lose badly? :lol:

Seriously, we have heavily invested in military techs and military units. It would be a shame to stop now. We have just learned how to build War Elephants. Pre-Maceman Era, they are THE UNIT to pwn with.

We have captured his Iron (although he might have more), so that's a start. I pillaged it, though, since the Babylonians had some Culture on the square.

If we want our newly-captured City to have more than a couple of squares to work, we'll need to take probably at least 1 more City.


I suppose that it is not going to be considered to be "abusive whipping" if we whip Cultural Buildings in a captured City that has so much Cultural pressure on it that it would shrink in population points anyway? I mean, if the citizens are going to die at a rate of 1 per turn over the course of the following few turns, we might as well whip a cultural building or two in place of them, right? It's not like those Cultural buildings will matter for a Cultural Victory, if that's your concern, since a Cultural Victory isn't about "getting a lot of Culture everywhere" but is more about "focusing the Culture in a few locations."


I imagine we don't want to continue fighting protective LBs too long with our sucky units. He doesn't own any wonders...
Well, it becomes a situational judgment call. If we can defend our captured City with a few defenders, including a War Elephant or two, then you can move out of the bulk of the army such that it will "fork" two AI Cities. Maybe even have two bombarding stacks that bombard two Cities at once. Once both Cities are close to 0% City Defences, consolodate the stack at the City with the least Longbowmen defenders and take it down.

War Elephants + Cats are not much different from Maces + Cats, so just a traditional "I brought twice as many siege units as you have Longbowmen" type of brute-force attack could work, too.
 
I'm afraid I'm not too happy with the situation at closer look.

Is it correct that I can switch production off a build that has no hammers invested? I ask because those monasteries don't help at all. Example delhi (#1 science city): building a monastery gives roughly +4 beakers. At 100%. Which we can afford for maybe 1/3 of the turns. So we get around 1 beaker per turn for 60 hammers. For that amount of hammers, I can send those citizens on holidays for 54 turns while having them build research on the other 6. The only reason I build monasteries is when it's from the AP religion or in border cities.
Well, the previous player may not be playing for the same goal as you, so what does not make sense to you might make sense to them.

I will, say, however, that:
- One of the first 3 Religions (Buddhism, Hinduism, or Judaism) is almost certainly going to become the AP Religion
- With a settled Great Scientist and 2 hired Scientist Specialists in the capital, that's a guaranteed 1 Flask per turn, with more coming on turns where we flip to 100% Science. It won't take long to return the investment compared to building a Research build
- Monasteries produce Culture
- Monasteries allow us to build Missionaries as soon as the AP is built


I don't see us recapturing those bananas (or the iron near varanasi) peacefully. Both cities are ~40 turns away from border pop and around 40% ours.
Even if we don't get the Bananas, which we only *just* lost during my turnset, so we might get them back. Even if we don't get them back, we want to avoid losing additional squares.


Our next GP is 40 turns away. Our (by far) best GPFarm has the note "Build Heroic Epic here"......
Well, it's just a sign and it was just an idea. EITHER Epic could work. I just figured that:
a) With the possible permanent loss of the Bananas
AND
b) Without a majorly-awesome Hammer-based City elsewhere, and if we stayed at war, then we might go with the Heroic Epic there

It's not like we started on the build item there, so for now, it's just a possible idea. I would be fine with putting the National Epic there, instead.


Is it correct that I *could* change research to something else?
Yes, because technically, the closest to "break even" Science has us learning Civil Service in 18 turns. If I recall correctly, it comes down to within the 15 turn mark only at a +10% Science Rate, at which point we'd be losing 7 Gold per Turn.

So, yes, you can change our selected Research item, if you would prefer to do so.


Regarding the war situation, we can't give him back any cities, right? That means we'll bleed cash for augsburg forever and not even have it connected to our empire.
Uhhh, well I told you guys of my plans. No one said "raze that bloody City!"

I actually thought that I would still be Bombarding in my turnset. :lol:

The City IS connected, via Babylon and the Netherlands, as far as Trade Routes go. It's not like you get additional Corruption Maintenance because a City is not adjacent to the rest of your Cultural Borders. If we were to capture more of Charle's Cities, it would be a great area to build The Forbidden Palace.


One remedy that springs to mind is a short trip to babylon. Nippur and Opis are not on hills and not far into the border. Babylon is on a hill but would be the icing on the cake, with its shrine and all those other shiny wonders. By capturing those cities we'll have a proper empire. Nippur could be taken out with a few HAs, Opis as well I expect, and both on the first turn of war. Opis looks to be culturebombed btw. Could be worthwile teching archery and upgrade a few chariots or build HAs. Main stack with infantry/cats/phants could head for babylon.
As I said above, you are free to slot in research on Archery. I made sure of it by checking that I picked an expensive enough tech (Civil Service).

At the time, I was racing to War Elephants and didn't really want to slot in Archery, but you can do it now, if you'd like.

You are the current Military Commander. If you would rather make an enemy out of Babylon as well as out of the AIs that like the Bablynians, it is your choice to do so. Note, however, that since Charle declared war on us, it is like a "free war" in terms of diplomacy, since we didn't anger anyone due to not having made the war declaration ourselves.


As we can't get any techs in exchange of peace I don't see a reason to keep up the war with charly.
The last that I checked, he still wanted one of our Cities, but I admit that I didn't check after capturing Augsburg. According to the rules, though, we can't hand over any Cities for peace, even ones that previously belonged to an AI. Things can get pretty tricky on the capture-and-must-keep-if-not-razed front, huh?


I couldn't slot in any builds in the city building Moai to get more hammers into moai by whipping those other things? Like a WB for tundra city?
Oops, nope. You can build one in Bombay, though. I thought that we were going to keep capturing Cities, so I figured that there wasn't a major need for a Tundra City.


All those cottages make me feel sick. I understand we can't build any other improvement but still... Guess we built too many workers.
Perhaps we just didn't capture enough Cities yet? ;)
 
I will, say, however, that:
- One of the first 3 Religions (Buddhism, Hinduism, or Judaism) is almost certainly going to become the AP Religion
- With a settled Great Scientist and 2 hired Scientist Specialists in the capital, that's a guaranteed 1 Flask per turn, with more coming on turns where we flip to 100% Science. It won't take long to return the investment compared to building a Research build
- Monasteries produce Culture
- Monasteries allow us to build Missionaries as soon as the AP is built
I was making the delhi example as it's the best science city. I was rather thinking of the monasteries in other cities.

Even if we don't get the Bananas, which we only *just* lost during my turnset, so we might get them back. Even if we don't get them back, we want to avoid losing additional squares.
Nope we wont, at least not soon. *Just* losing it means that the opponent is stronger culturally at the moment. And as I pointed out it'll take quite some time until our borders pop and we can start planning with those resources again.

Well, it's just a sign and it was just an idea. EITHER Epic could work. I just figured that:
a) With the possible permanent loss of the Bananas
AND
b) Without a majorly-awesome Hammer-based City elsewhere, and if we stayed at war, then we might go with the Heroic Epic there

It's not like we started on the build item there, so for now, it's just a possible idea. I would be fine with putting the National Epic there, instead.
I think you just missed the biggest pro argument, the settled MI. However, my point is, we have no real GP-Site other than that, so settling the MI there is not really reasonnable. IMO NE in that city is by far the best move. So now we either forget about GPs and build HE there or we waste that MI and build NE there.

I'm not thinking the bananas are lost for good, I just say we won't recapture it peacefully.

The City IS connected, via Babylon and the Netherlands, as far as Trade Routes go. It's not like you get additional Corruption Maintenance because a City is not adjacent to the rest of your Cultural Borders. If we were to capture more of Charle's Cities, it would be a great area to build The Forbidden Palace.
You're totally right. What I mean is that, say we're attacked, we have huge borders to defend and our cities don't protect eachother('s improvements from pillaging). Say we're planning to DOW Just and ham decides to DOW us, we're in a major logistic dilemma. Or, should we for some reason (like AP or demands or so) lose OB with ham/willem, we might be cut off completely.

I agree though that its good positionned for the FP but then we should go capture some real cities. Charly's are yet further away (yet more border and negative diplo) so I come back to my suggestion to take out some of ham's cities (score leader btw). I see a window of opportunity here as his border cities that are reachable in 1t are pretty weakly defended.

The last that I checked, he still wanted one of our Cities, but I admit that I didn't check after capturing Augsburg. According to the rules, though, we can't hand over any Cities for peace, even ones that previously belonged to an AI. Things can get pretty tricky on the capture-and-must-keep-if-not-razed front, huh?
Well in retrospect I would say it would be better to have razed it but afterwards you're always smarter. I doubt I would've razed it. I still prefer what I proposed in my last post.
 
He'll give us 80 gold, 5 gpt and some techs we can't take. If we tech feudalism it will take about 9 turns of binary, CS is about 12. We could probably tech feudalism grab another city and cap him, wouldn't affect diplo really as all the hindu are pleased where rest are cautious. This gives us some help if Hatty/Just decide to declare on us (unlikely) or if we decide to declare on anyone. Hammy has Sistine's so we aren't likely to get the bananas back without a war. Hatty must of founded Christianity as the only cities we can't see it to get distant lands message are Hattys, only Hatty and Just have Theology so AP isn't likely to be Hindu.
 
We DID get a reasonably high amount of war success against Charle, which, apparently, does not decay as long as you remain at war. Not every player might want a Vassal, but it's certainly a neat idea, particularly for an AI that doesn't have a lot of Wonders anyway.


Still, it's probably better to just take peace if your target is Babylon, so that you don't have to defend our Cities so well and can leverage most of the army in assaulting the weakly-defended Cities as soon as possible.

Attacking Babylon does make the City that we captured from Charle become a lot more useful, so I'm okay with war against either opponent (and even war against both, if you think that you can handle it and plan to go for Feudalism after Archery).
 
Once confronted with the vasalling idea, dhoom quickly changes his mind :p

I thought about vasalling charly as well. Considering the desperate need for CS and chain irrigation in particular, I'm not sure we can prospone it until after feudalism. OTOH we'd get that big safety factor of LBs. But then, keeping war with charly up binds some units and while it's possible to build up a babylon-liberation-force in the meantime, we really should get his cap before that. I could capture aachen first and guard it with a few units while building up for ham, but I probably won't DOW before we get his cap. That might work. Just keep the fingers crossed that ham doesn't get feud himself...
 
I don't think we have enough land or power to vassal Charlie at this point. I'd rather take the safer route here.

Tackling Hammy would be nice as he's the big boy on the map right now. I'm not sure how whether it's feasible to attack with cat/phants though.
 
We definitely have enough power for charlie. He DOWd us (remember? :p) and we smashed his SoD, reinforcements and captured a city. If we get one more city (for that we have 9+ turns to do) he is bound to capitulate.

We could bake small bread and just go for the 2 babylonian border cities. A bunch of HAs is enough, then we can easily defend vs ham until he signs peace.
 
If we go for another city off Charl to cap him, the two choices are the southern city (more border with Ham if we then declare on him), or the HRE capitol. Either way all Ham's wonders are in Babylon which with taking the 2 border cities becomes a border town, very tempting then, if things are going well, to just take that as well :) Babylon thou is a non-razable city by rules since it contains Sistine's, hopefully with the FP somewhere in the south of our lands (after we free them from oppression :p ) shouldn't make it too hard on maintaince.
 
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