Concepts and Ideas for a Modpack( suggestions, helps and fans wanted)

[gfurst]

In AND Afforess made the mine improvements upgradeable but did not generalise it to the other improvements so some of the code for that idea exists giving you something to build upon.

What I meant with trade is "iron" for "wheat" type trade. Most mods seem to go for every nation having its own source for all resources negating this feature entirly.

The basic SDK has the code to development of improvements, its how the cottage works.
However my idea differ a bit, it would need the worker to upgrade, and also a single cottage could upgrade to various options.

I didn't quite get your question, this type of trade is relevant on whether or not the map scrip generates abundance of resource.
Anyway with the idea of units not requiring resources to produce, and other stuff on building, resources could give a bonus per quantity, making every single resource to be useful even with surplus.

Your question, is like, too wide. You can better formulate your question to what was your doubt specifically. Or maybe there is a suggestion you like to add?

 

[Highwayhoss]

That suggestion is actually about production resources caravans, I thought about it, a lot. But to enable this feature we would have trading units or a special mechanism, and that's overly hard to do, specially teaching the AI.

Instead I thought about buildings the produce and on the cost of , and their output would depend on investment rate.

Interesting idea; that would be handy to deal with cities with a shortage of food or production. Those buildings could be available with certain techs and their output could increase with more advanced technologies.

 

[gfurst]

Interesting idea; that would be handy to deal with cities with a shortage of food or production. Those buildings could be available with certain techs and their output could increase with more advanced technologies.

My first idea for this was to have have a building with a or production per spending, in such way, when you invest in infrastructure these outputs will grow with few units to not overdo it.

Instead I thought of a importer building that allows citizens to become importers, they provide or while subtracting , the direct impact these have are easily used by city governors.

Anyway, the first doesn't nullify the second. Those are lesser very specific subjects, we can deal we them later.

 

[gfurst]

Hey guys, I just had an Epiphany while writing some of the subjects.
So keep a look out on the edit date on the posts to see which are update or not.

My epiphany actually was the spotting of a major flaw on the commerce focus subject, specifically how buildings could work with the investments rates.

Let's say library as basic example:
instead of the +25% in addition to the output of the city, I suggested:
+1/5% rate (figurative numbers for demonstration)
The flaw in here is that it doesn't matter whether the city is expending 100 or 10 of in , the output of the library ends up being the same, and that's not in harmony with the concept I attempt to achieve.

So I brainstormed for solutions, and came up with:
1° - +1/1, then if you got like 25 spending on you get a output of 25 total
2° - +5%/5% rate, which is like a middle term result and increases considerably with investment

Now, the second one is considerably closer to the actual output of recent games, the difference with more investment the output increases drastically, increasing the research rate will both increase the original output and the rate multiplier of the output. Thanks to my Calculus skills, I've been able to figure out the result is a square equation, greatly increased in function of the investment variable.

The first solution however, stays more in harmony with the concept itself. The output is directly proportional to the investment. The initial output is greater, but as investment grows, it stays proportional to the investment rate.
Comparing the two, the total output of the second will always be lower than the first, only equalling when investment reaches 100%.

The Second option also makes more sense when comparing to other investment types, such as to , the output of those buildings will always be direct proportional, not the square result of.

To compensate on the surplus output, I've revived another idea, to have a variable tax to the empire, that is: from the overall extracted only a portion of it is actually used to public means, citizens can now get a life of their own.

So I need for people to give your opinion on this changed idea.

In the above I meant the first option makes more sense.

After redoing some math, I spotted a important thing I missed before, the +1/1 spent works exactly like a +100% on the production. For example a library in current games works exactly like a +1/4.

The concept itself is not flawed, instead I figure this is one thing Firaxis got right.

With the concept in mind, the forge for example instead of the +25% could give a +1/4 spent, with as infrastructure spending.

The greatest difference is on the perspective on which we see things.
With a focus on spending instead of simple rates, we can re-figure others aspects of the game that were previously overlooked.

This even brings the Taxes module even more importance, for it will greatly reduce the overall surplus of commerce. ( with 50% taxes you have only half the overall commerce to be used)

=Edit=
I'm being mind raped, its just because with every idea I try to imagine it in multiple scenarios and situations. Its exhausting.

The thing I though about now, if you have a library and a observatory in the same city, you're not really spending the on those buildings, instead you're just multiplying the science output.

This is overly complicated because of the commerce types purposes are so different from each other. science is by far the most important.

I'm still not sure with each idea I should go, the +1/ or the +1/rate.

I had a nice idea though, to have some buildings output dependable on population size, like the market for example, to have a +1 commerce per population. That is nice.
I'm having down thoughts on the tax Idea, maybe it could be implied in Civics.

Well I'm getting sleepy and its harder and harder to think straight.
Please, let me hear your thoughts on this, either seems possible to me.

 

[gfurst]

I think I finally figure out the solution for the puzzle.

The real problem is about equalizing the value of with the value of , and also equalizing the value of these individual commerce types themselves.

Spoiler Idea #1 :

The +'commerce type'/'commerce spent' kind of output, really is a good idea, considering that the output is on the buildings themselves, this way, if there is a building with a rate modifier, it would include the final output of the city, not just a sum of the rates (the way it is nowadays).

For example the library(of course), that gives a:
+1/1 spent

However this output resulted from the library is giving directly to the library it self, summing up with the total of the city, and them later to be affected by a multiplier if there has one.
The equation is the same, the difference is where the bonus goes:
final output = (city output + sum of buildings outputs)( sum of the rate modifiers)
In the case of the library, they would sum with buildings instead of being summed as a rate.

Spoiler Idea #2 :

Instead I thought of the solution, in a way that building will really have a cost directly on the output they have.
They would provide 'bonus'/'gold' spent. This gives the building a real cost by providing bonus stuff, this also gives more sense to the whole picture provided that buildings not only provide but also provide even xp and possibly more stuff.

In the example for library:
+1 -1/% rate

This output is directly on the building, the -1 would go as maintenance for the city.
With this in mind cities would have tremendous maintenances, so this will require better balancing to manage the empire as a whole. Also with upgradable buildings and other ones that reduce maintenance we could increase the efficiency of the output.

In the equation presented before:
final output = (city output + sum of buildings outputs)( sum of the rate modifiers)
The output of most buildings will go as well in the sum for buildings.

Spoiler Idea #3 :

I just thought of this one, its a derivative for the number two option.
Buildings will have a output based on cost as well, the difference is that there is no passive 'commerce type' spending. Every income from the city is immediately converted to , the spending rates will only have influence if buildings are built.

Comparing the equation from before
final output = (city output + sum of buildings outputs)( sum of the rate modifiers)
In this situation the city output is null( except for ), entirely depending on buildings built to have actual outputs.

With this idea we really have a direct output per spending rate. This also opens space to have focused cities, a city focused on production, other on research, another on military production and so on.
It also gives a whole lot more of sense to the tax idea from earlier.
Its truly the solidification from the concept I had in mind.

=Result=
Even thought the number 3 is an awesome idea, its so far from conventional Civ4 that I'm even afraid of thinking about it( now I know what the mind rape was about).
So with #2 I shall go, it is more like an middle term between the other two, keep in mind that I also aim for a fun game with these concepts.

I will update a lot of the subject posts, my head is much lighter, ideas are going consistently, so I better make use of it.

obs¹: Just found about giving title to the spoiler thing, nice!
obs²: If you're interested about the tax thing, give a look on the thread linked from my signature.

 

[LyTning94]

After I finish with my current mod (see my sig), I'd be glad to help with this one, if help is needed.

Actually, I was hoping to combine this one with mine after they're both completed (if that's ok).

 

[gfurst]

After I finish with my current mod (see my sig), I'd be glad to help with this one, if help is needed.

Actually, I was hoping to combine this one with mine after they're both completed (if that's ok).

Yeah, its completely ok. Your help is welcome

 

[lfgr]

I would like to help you, too

 

[gfurst]

I'm currently finishing a game in one of my favorite mods, "Legends of Revolutions" more than a week now and its haarrrrd
Anyway, it got me thinking that LoR would be a good mod to get started from.
But that is for later times, I'm drawing sketches for the components, the work will begin any time now.

 

[gfurst]

I bring an happy announcement, I finished my game on LoR.
It was a long battle, 32 hours, more than a week in RL( it was a small map ).
Finished with a space race, I won of course, even thought it wasn't a smooth sailing all the time.
Empires came to dust leaders faded while others appeared, it was epic... Aw yeah...

Now to business, its awesome to finish a modded game. I think LoR was the only one I finished so far( maybe Planetfall also).
Usually with mods we get bugs, crashes, even unreasonable unbalanced features that eventually blow our minds and makes it impossible for us to finish the game.
A valuable lesson to be learned. Don't get me wrong, even LoR modern units were strangely unbalanced, I had to push myself to keep playing.

Back to my ideas, I have also tinkered about the slowed growth feature, also with someone else idea to create vassals when settling a new city.
I would like some ideas, so people please, brainstorm a little with me.
Its late now but be sure I'll be back with my brainstormed ideas on the subject.

 

[lfgr]

I just played a bit LoR (thanks for the hint ) and I really like to see civilizations rise and fall. There were many civilizations, weak and strong, tiny and big, not as in normal bts, where most civs are equipollent over a long time.
In this case of strong and weak civs vassals are cool, but in my game there was a civ near me that researched feudalism before me and quickly got all the weak civs as vassals, that I made friendly in hard work. So I think vassals should be available earlier.
I think creating vassals on settling is not a very good idea when you anyway have settlers only in a later phase of the game. I would like it more when cities come up nearly and would agree quickly to become vassals.
It would also be cool if some cities could capitulate at there own. The problem with vassals is: more vassals means more players, and more players means less performance.

Another thing: Have you thought about specialists?

Hope you understand my bad English.

 

[gfurst]

In this case of strong and weak civs vassals are cool, but in my game there was a civ near me that researched feudalism before me and quickly got all the weak civs as vassals, that I made friendly in hard work. So I think vassals should be available earlier.

Yeah, I didn't face this situation. I played with "start as minors" and "aggressive AI" plus on noble difficulty, so basically since the start of the game all civs were in big war mode. But I get your point.

I think creating vassals on settling is not a very good idea when you anyway have settlers only in a later phase of the game.

Did you mean that settlers should be available later in the game? If so, I agree.
The idea I have is too create something like a independent city-state instead, something that you have less control on, but you share nationality and military, but still has the risk of losing it.
My major doubt is if I make this feature something like a vassal type city state or something like a civic feature.

I would like it more when cities come up nearly and would agree quickly to become vassals.
It would also be cool if some cities could capitulate at there own.

Yeah, this little part a didn't quite get.

The problem with vassals is: more vassals means more players, and more players means less performance.

Yeah, I know about the performance issue, don't worry.

 

[lfgr]

Yeah, this little part a didn't quite get.

First thing: Instead of making a settler and found a city there should come up some weak civs nearly (BarbarianCiv, just with more one-city-states) that gladly agree being a vassal of you.
Second: If I come with 10 Swordsman to capture a city with only one warrior on it, either the whole empire capitulates or I get the city. It would be logical that the city itself capitulates, either as new vassal state or joining my civ.

 

[Chiyochan]

I've always wanted to make civ play much more like eu3 personally, civ 4 is extremely gamey and civ 5 more so, I only wish from civ 5 I could port over the graphics, the buy multiple items, and the city state. those are really all the things I need, I'd probably suggest focusing on WoC/revdmc rather than a whole new engine, the modular ability of WoC makes civ really great these days, even a total amature like me can port things from mods with a little elbow grease, at the moment, what I really wanna see a module for is the dynamic traits beta mod, This mod has so much more potential than just for basic traits. It's an easy and intuitive way to add empire wide modifiers for any reason, not just to represent some leader.

 

[gfurst]

Chiyochan, thanks for the reply. What is eu3?
I'm definitely going to make a WoC( don't know how to yet), but in fact I'm going to use RevDCM as base instead of the original SDK source.
I don't know this dynamic traits comp but sure looks good, I'll take a look later.

I've recently rediscovered Cololnization, and with a Dale mods is funnnn.
But worry not, I'm still thinking about ideas. By the way, What you people think about the Lopez resource mod? It came to me that its a good alternative to the current resource distributions system, also I thought about something like a dynamic resources feature.

Well see ya, Col keeps crashing with me and I'm afraid its some hard stuff going bad, so I'm going to spend this afternoon cleaning it , wish me luck.

 

[Chiyochan]

Chiyochan, thanks for the reply. What is eu3?
I'm definitely going to make a WoC( don't know how to yet), but in fact I'm going to use RevDCM as base instead of the original SDK source.
I don't know this dynamic traits comp but sure looks good, I'll take a look later.

I've recently rediscovered Cololnization, and with a Dale mods is funnnn.
But worry not, I'm still thinking about ideas. By the way, What you people think about the Lopez resource mod? It came to me that its a good alternative to the current resource distributions system, also I thought about something like a dynamic resources feature.

Well see ya, Col keeps crashing with me and I'm afraid its some hard stuff going bad, so I'm going to spend this afternoon cleaning it , wish me luck.

you could drop eu3 into google to find out but It's europa universallis 3, as for traits mod comp, its pretty amazing,
the only resource mod i've seen by lopez was the resource teching one, do you have a link?

 

[gfurst]

you could drop eu3 into google to find out but It's europa universallis 3, as for traits mod comp, its pretty amazing,
the only resource mod i've seen by lopez was the resource teching one, do you have a link?

Sorry, I could searched on google, but I'm lazy
Anyway, I've just read the wikipedia page, its seems awesome , I have to play this game sometime.

Here the link to the city resource stockpile

 

[gfurst]

Hey people, here are some of ideas I've tinkering on:

Spoiler Point of Origin :

The basic idea is that every major civ in the game will have a point of origin, when the civ settle its first city the point of origin will be created and assigned to the nation. Thus the region in the map itself has a nationality associated with it, Being a bigger point of interest if the original nation loses this region.

I was thinking about removing the culture per tile setting, instead I'm thinking in separating the city borders from culture range, I have also to keep in mind the concept of infra-structure instead of culture, more on that later.

Nationality will be defined by culture and it should play a major role in the game, such as defining if a player should declare war to regain a city or if the conquering of the city should be frowned upon.

Points of origins themselves will not be static, they will slowly decay and disappear if not owned for a long time and then reappear near the new capital. Also if you have cities too far away from your point of origin they may create their own Point of Origin, thus creating their own nationality.
I still am to figure out how the mechanics will work exactly, but for sure if you have a city next to another's origin, part of your culture production will be for the others nationality.

Spoiler Generic City States :

This idea came from the fact that I simply don't like that every barb city is friendly to the other. If I may, this is the way I found to separate different barbarian civs, apart from the basic minor civs.

Instead of barbarians settling random cities and being friendly to each others, each time a barbarian city settles it becomes a generic city-state with its own AI and own units.

Now to the part generic part. As you may imagine there could be several different barb civs around, initially they wouldn't have any uniques, they cannot expand and will have a nationality from a major civ.
If this city-state settles far from any Origin point, than it will create its own nationality, if it settles next to another origin point it will have the same nationality than the origin point( that's right, same culture).

The generic city-state leaders will tend to be favourable to the fellow neighbours of the same nationality. And also may create their own point of origin if certain factors are met. Which bring us to the next part.

Spoiler Slowed growth :

I've been in doubt on how make it a really slowed growth, its really hard to imagine something cool yet playable. Until I stumbled on someone else's idea to create other civs while settling a new city in the beginning of the game.

I thought this to be a cool feature but not so much planned, but with the concepts of generic city-states and points of origins, they could all come together as a really nice feature.

So to the feature it self:
-Settlers wouldn't be available right from the start, they require a certain technology to being produced. I'm thinking of "writing" as default, since this is the one where we can start conducting diplomacy when playing "minor civs" feature.
-When you finally can have a settler, they create a generic city-state their own with allied status to the mother nation, I'm still in doubt if they should start as vassals or simply open borders.
-Even without settlers, some barbarian city-states may settle near you point of origin, the difference being, they wouldn't start favourable to the mother nation.
-With time and depending the decisions both make, the city-state may be annexed by diplomacy or by conquest, also depending on certain factors the city-state may feel separated from the mother land and create his own point of origin. This last part, I'm having a rough time on how this should be done.
-With further technology we finally learn how to affectively conquer new and further lands, the passive expansion ceases and colonies come into place. Colonist replaces the settlers unit, and finally may found new cities. These cities of course will be accordingly tagged as colonies, instead of the stupid mechanism that has every single city outside of the continent tagged as colony.

Furthermore diplomacy has to be improved beyond the "improve diplomacy" modcomp
Vassals should give more bonus to the master as well as being more demanding.

Spoiler Terrain :

I'm really thinking about adopting the PlanetFall terrain style, that is to have different highs but also other features. And already thinking how it could affect every single thing in the game.

Well that's it for the time being, please comment your opinions about this, its something I'm really undecided about yet.
Thanks Chiyochan for the tips and the eu3 game reference. Even if that game is way too confusing for me, it still pretty much changed my mind.
I've made my decision to focus more on passive gameplay( where things are more out of control), to make it more fun and less "play for winning". Like you said, less gamey.

 

[Sam Ro]

You certainly have some great ideas there! And i LOVE that you're still working on Civ4 - still my fav by far

My 2 cents would be in regards to slowing growth. 2 things that have done that are:
1) - natural obstacles
2) - hostile peoples

For 1)
I like the way mountains went from movement 3 to impassable, but why not have both? I'll explain: Mountains could retain their Civ2 characteristics if there could be an 'impass' equivalent of rivers (ie. between tiles).
Also, deserts are far too easy to cross. (See the last paragraph of this)
For 2)
Ramp up the barbarians & give them extra abilities. (See the central paragraph of this)
That should slow growth in the initial game whilst making the whole game more 'out of control'/less 'gamey' & (imho) more fun.

 

[gfurst]

Hey folks,
After two years away from the forums
*Lots of stuff happened in my life*
I though to look back at this post and see who else is around.

I'm really feeling like making all these ideas come to life in a different game,
why waste time making a civ4 mod while most of the community passed on to civ5 while we can make a whole indie game out of this?

I wonder if anyone from the forum would be up to that.
Cheers