[GS] Conquest in GS

[Wingednosering]

I'm having trouble getting into the swing of the Ottomans on Deity. I spoke to some users briefly about it in the general chat and decided it was worth creating a full thread over so as not to derail the one we were in.

In the thread, it was suggested to me that I either archer rush or beeline catapults for an instant win. Neither of those suggestions are working well for me.

Typically, by the time I have catapults out, the AIs have a slight tech lead, which means I can only capture 1-2 cities before the catapults are getting two-shotted by cities. I feel like I just don't understand conquest in general in GS.

The resource costs really mess me up, since you're either paying a fortune or you're sitting around for 20 turns waiting for your strategics to pile up enough for a single unit.

Archer rushes seem useless in Deity to me (sans Nubia). I just tried the first 100 turns of a few games and ended up next to Scythia, Nubia and Gorgo. All of them countered it so easily with their deity production that it was sort of embarrassing. On equal footing, I can destroy the AI, just like everybody else, but it's tough to rush or out-tech the deity AI that early in GS.

Does anybody have some advice for how older strategies can be adapted for HS? Or any tips for the Ottomans specifically?

 

[MarigoldRan]

Are you using Serasker?

Also, no, you're not going to successfully archer rush Scythia (if they have horses) or Nubia (regardless of what they have).

If those are your neighbors, you wait for janissary.

 

[Wingednosering]

So if you have a militaristic neighbour, you should build some Campuses and settlers instead of military?

 

[pkaem]

Archer rushing is limited. It needs terrain. With a cap more than 12 tiles away from yours and or rough terrain it loses it's effectiveness fast. Siege weapons suck less when 50% off but still suck. You'll need tech for catapults and units, so the AI is ahead when you are ready, as you already observed. As always a battering ram is the solution. You can go swords but again, melee units are a problem on rough terrain. But an early push with three+ swords and an encampment can work. Also a campus flavored horse push can be very effective. For both you will consider a +2 magnus to chop out your army. Especially when you have only one source of resource. You can combine archers with a horse follow up. Otherwise you can beeline for coursers or do a push with knights.

 

[MarigoldRan]

With Serasker you can archer rush everyone EXCEPT Scythia, Nubia, Kongo, Mongolia (who gets lots of archers of his own) and the Greeks (though the Greeks might be doable as the AI is dumb and doesn't do Hoplite spam). So basically you got the worst neighbors possible.

6-8 Serasker buffed archers can take down cities with walls without much trouble. I'm testing it right now and I just killed Georgia, otherwise known as "Wall Woman". Probably going to restart and try another game.

EDIT: You're getting 3 slingers and upgrading them right?

 

[Wingednosering]

Yup. I'll have to give it another go this weekend. Sounds like I just had terrible luck.

 

[Stamson]

I feel like I am even more confused than the OP. I have some even more basic questions:

EDIT: Nevermind. Put the gov dude in a forward settled city with a promotion, got it.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Ottoman unique governor. Needs two promotions to get Serasker (so you'll need Early Empire and State Workforce upgrades on him). Put governor in YOUR city 10 tiles away from AI city. He'll give +10 attack to any archers hitting the city making a BIG difference in damage done.

 

[BK*]

Watch this Omega's Ottoman run, he is one of my Favorite youtuber's. He plays very well and a lot different form the "pros" we know.

 

[Wingednosering]

Thanks, I'll check that out. I gave it another go last night and while it went slightly better, I was still repelled pretty easily. I think I'm just not used to the units the Ottomans require. The Janissaries are great, but siege units still feel useless to me until Atomic or so. Juggling the niter costs really kills the Ottomans since you need it for both of their main units (bombard and janissary).

I feel like most of the best conquerors in this game have militaristic bonuses that last for most of each game. The Ottomans really only have a tiny window to do anything and they get pulled in too many different directions during that small window. The only boost they have outside of the Janissary era is stronger siege units (which are useless until then) and Ibrahim, who's good but doesn't compare to Scythia/Zulu/Mongols' bonuses.

Being a warmonger that doesn't help with early game conquest feels really off and brings a ton of challenges with it.

 

[Stamson]

Thanks, I'll check that out. I gave it another go last night and while it went slightly better, I was still repelled pretty easily. I think I'm just not used to the units the Ottomans require. The Janissaries are great, but siege units still feel useless to me until Atomic or so. Juggling the niter costs really kills the Ottomans since you need it for both of their main units (bombard and janissary).

I feel like most of the best conquerors in this game have militaristic bonuses that last for most of each game. The Ottomans really only have a tiny window to do anything and they get pulled in too many different directions during that small window. The only boost they have outside of the Janissary era is stronger siege units (which are useless until then) and Ibrahim, who's good but doesn't compare to Scythia/Zulu/Mongols' bonuses.

I gave them a shot this weekend, and I kinda like them actually. The archer rush strat + other later bonuses mean you pretty much have *something* working in your favor during the entire game.

Although I agree the siege unit stuff is pretty useless. Janissary are definitely good but yeah, I just don't love em as much as other good UUs.

 

[Gaonac'h]

Archers are amazing at dealing with AI units/barbarians but you will have an easier time against cities with horses/swords/heavy-chariots than with archers.

About the Ottomans: don't forget the no-population lost and the extra amenity on conquest while also getting an extra +4 loyalty per turn, it's amazing for early conquest especially if you are facing a dark age.
The janissary is a good unit but it also cost niter, so you may have to make a choice: should I upgrade my knights/quadriremes/coursers or build a janissary?

 

[Victoria]

When I went to play them I had already decided to ignore seige until bombards.
I went Amani and magnus first and did a vanilla sword rush which was fine, Magnus is great for this too.the idea is to get swords with the ottomans and promote the hell out of them so when you go to janissaries they just rumble with your governor. I ended up getting some knights in between and oh my they were just fine, it is really all about the seige bonus and keeping him forward enough.
Like most new civs, rather strong as long as you take time over your turns to keep considering all the things you need to.

 

[Codeblue009]

Ottoman unique governor. Needs two promotions to get Serasker (so you'll need Early Empire and State Workforce upgrades on him). Put governor in YOUR city 10 tiles away from AI city. He'll give +10 attack to any archers hitting the city making a BIG difference in damage done.

When I went to play them I had already decided to ignore seige until bombards.
I went Amani and magnus first and did a vanilla sword rush which was fine, Magnus is great for this too.the idea is to get swords with the ottomans and promote the hell out of them so when you go to janissaries they just rumble with your governor. I ended up getting some knights in between and oh my they were just fine, it is really all about the seige bonus and keeping him forward enough.
Like most new civs, rather strong as long as you take time over your turns to keep considering all the things you need to.

So I play with the Ottomans a lot and I love this civ. Victoria is correct in the approach to take in the early and mid game. I do not go on the offensive until I get Ibrahim and his ability to give +10 combat strength (within 10 tiles) in districts. I use at a minimum swordsman with a battering ram attached to one of them. Some horses if I am lucky to get them. I usually do not have crossbow or very few crossbows at this time, and I at least have two catapults. The outer walls melt within one turn or two at the most. Keep pushing once this happens and the AI can't recover. This is a minimum requirement to continue to push forward. Plan to lose units when you are making your forward push, and account for their replacement if you can. Nevertheless, once you get started in the forward advance, you will be able to catch up to the AI in science and/or domination.

My selection of governors are first Ibrahim, then Magnus, Amani, & Pingala (in that order). The +10 combat strength that Ibrahim gives you is the equalizer when the AI has better tech and units than you do, as they usually do. Be prepared to make peace when it suits you financially to do so. It costs a lot of gold to make your forward advancement. Make sure you take the AI's capital as soon as you can. Don't worry if you make peace before that. Just wait the 10 to 15 turns and start right back kicking their backside. Now I am not an expert by any means. I have only won 5 Deity games since I started playing Civilization VI four months ago. I won four (4) with the Ottomans and one (1) with Korea. When playing the Ottomans I am always behind the AI until mid game when I make my strong forward advancement.

So I play Deity on a standard Continental Map. I am attaching my last game for you to attempt. I will include the starting file, the mid game and the last turn of the game (it wound up being a science victory by turn 340). Again, I am not an expert here and I am very slow in winning, but I am still learning this game. The people on this forum give good advice to improve your game. I have learned a lot from everyone here and incorporated that knowledge into my game play. Have fun with the map and enjoy the game.

Cheers.

 

[Victoria]

My selection of governors are first Ibrahim, then Magnus, Amani, & Pingala (in that order). The +10 combat strength that Ibrahim gives you is the equalizer

There are 5 governor promotions early enough. So why go Ibrahim first? 20% on building troops is often not enough.
You have the added bonus of not really wanting a classical golden so you can discount Amani.
Magnus black marketeer is underrated. 4 iron for a sword if you are willing to hard build it... or chop it. You can get quite an early sword army using this approach and going with Ibrahim later. Early archers while getting your govt building in place then spam swords with Magnus.
Having some cash helps but with the stupid price of dip favour at the mo you do not need to worry.
I do not feel Pingala +6-+8 are good enough compensation for this strategy as it is not a Knight rush that benefits more from the culture beeline. I also think the +science is a bit of a trap, as in you do not really need it compared to other Governor promotions.

 

[Codeblue009]

There are 5 governor promotions early enough. So why go Ibrahim first? 20% on building troops is often not enough.
You have the added bonus of not really wanting a classical golden so you can discount Amani.
Magnus black marketeer is underrated. 4 iron for a sword if you are willing to hard build it... or chop it. You can get quite an early sword army using this approach and going with Ibrahim later. Early archers while getting your govt building in place then spam swords with Magnus.
Having some cash helps but with the stupid price of dip favour at the mo you do not need to worry.

The reason for Ibrahim first for me is that I am always getting attacked early or forward settled, so I need to take down the AI's outer walls rather quickly since I am usually at a troop deficit. I like your approach when I am not in fear for my life..lol. With Magnus, I typically take Surplus logic followed by Industrialist & finally Vertical Integration. With Amani ( not sure how to use her correctly), I typically stop at Emissary to get the -2 loyalty on adjacent enemy cities. So I do get a lot of golden ages in the beginning of the game, I guess from what you are saying I am not taking advantage of this feat without the proper governor? Can you go into a bit more detail for me to understand how to take advantage of the golden age please? My typical game starts out like this: Scout, begin monument production and stop when I have population for Settler; slinger & warrior (finish up monument). After this I let the game conditions dictate what is next.

I do not chop early for troops. I thought I read somewhere not to do that, so I avoid doing it unless I am about to lose the early game. I definitely have learned to get my government building up early as I can. I love utilizing the spies for gold and tech buffs. I have used this practice to build my Naval Airforce in the later game, as you can see from the files. When I am making my units, I always seems to run at a deficit, hence why I am always trying to get more gold early. I use my trade routes, pillaging and spies if I have them to shore up my funds. I am producing commercial hubs and markets at this time also. I remember reading somewhere you said to buy the Spaceport to speed up victory? Now that is definitely making me start retaining gold and maybe I do not have a large Naval fleet because of this.

Nevertheless, your points are well taken and I will incorporate them in my game play. Currently, I started a new game with Hungary and I have no idea what I am doing. I am so far behind, I am thinking about restarting. I need to read up more on how to use Hungary. Thanks for your comments. Have a good day.

Cheers!

 

[Victoria]

Can you go into a bit more detail for me to understand how to take advantage of the golden age please?

The combination of goddess of the harvest and golden monumentality pretty much wins you the game if you can get it.
A golden age increases your loyalty and so is great for when you are offensive. The danger with early ottoman goldens is getting a renaissance normal or dark just when you need golden for your strongest attack phase.
There is not strict rule and this version has great choice in differing situations so it’s just a general rule.... if you get harvest and think you can get a classical golden you are away... otherwise try and hold off.

I do not chop early for troops. I thought I read somewhere not to do that

Chops get more valuable with age peaking around the T100 mark apart from late special chops like late golden bonus resources or chopping projects, wonder.

maybe I do not have a large Naval fleet because of this.

hmm I am a naval player and I never have a large fleet, it really eats your gold and the AI at sea is so appalling at naval combat a monkey could do better. One or two groups of 3 ranged and 1 combat is adequate for everything required at sea. They spen a lot of the game wandering aimlessly or anchored anyway.

 

[Codeblue009]

The combination of goddess of the harvest and golden monumentality pretty much wins you the game if you can get it.
A golden age increases your loyalty and so is great for when you are offensive. The danger with early ottoman goldens is getting a renaissance normal or dark just when you need golden for your strongest attack phase.
There is not strict rule and this version has great choice in differing situations so it’s just a general rule.... if you get harvest and think you can get a classical golden you are away... otherwise try and hold off.

I did not know this at all. I usually get for my Pantheon, if it is still available, God of the Forge or Divinity Spark (Great Person Points). There is so much of the basics I do not understand with respect to synergies. Ok, maybe we can take this discussion offline for a bit of a training moment please.

Chops get more valuable with age peaking around the T100 mark apart from late special chops like late golden bonus resources or chopping projects, wonder.

Agreed! I try to use them strategically and later in game like you said.

hmm I am a naval player and I never have a large fleet, it really eats your gold and the AI at sea is so appalling at naval combat a monkey could do better. One or two groups of 3 ranged and 1 combat is adequate for everything required at sea. They spen a lot of the game wandering aimlessly or anchored anyway.​

I did not know this at all. I usually get for my Pantheon, if it is still available, God of the Forge or Divinity Spark (Great Person Points). There is so much of the basics I do not understand with respect to synergies. Ok, maybe we can take this discussion offline for a bit of a training moment please.



Chops get more valuable with age peaking around the T100 mark apart from late special chops like late golden bonus resources or chopping projects, wonder.



Agreed! I try to use them strategically and later in game like you said.



hmm I am a naval player and I never have a large fleet, it really eats your gold and the AI at sea is so appalling at naval combat a monkey could do better. One or two groups of 3 ranged and 1 combat is adequate for everything required at sea. They spen a lot of the game wandering aimlessly or anchored anyway.
[/QUOTE]​

I love my naval air carriers and my limited amount of battleships. It is my air carriers that complete dominate the game. Take a look at my files to see what I mean. It may be overkill, but I love a naval airforce. The bombers completely melt AI cities and I keep taking the continents. Gold is not a consideration at that point because my spies have funded my operations. This tactic may take a little longer to win the game.

Speaking of which, playing Deity standard continents maps, what is a good average turn to win either domination or science victory?

Thanks as always Victoria for you analysis. I learn a lot from you. Enjoy your day mate!

Cheers.​

 

[Victoria]

what is a good average turn to win either domination or science victory?

I played more emperor than deity and not played since just after the patch. It has supposedly got harder.
Maybe 200 for science and 170 for Dom is a good speed with a good start. Add 50 turns to be the average bear?