Continent of remaining Civ?

[GenjiKhan]

My only point was that for a modern nation to be included in the game, it should be a superpower. Modern nations with a good economy and a large population does not, in my opinion, merit inclusion. The U.S.'s military power, technological innovation, and global influence put it head and shoulders above any other modern nation, so I just took issue with someone saying Brazil deserves to be included in the game as much as the U.S.

What is very weird from you is the fact that if there's a civilization with a regional power,then it's good enough to be represented . But you made an exception for Brazil,by creating absurd standards that you know they don't fill it . And the most interesting part is the fact that Brazil's Independence and Zulu's Beginning have only 8 years of difference . Why doesn't Zulu didn't fall in the same standards of Brazil ?

 

[bite]

Honestly, I think you will have to wait for DLC for the Zulu's, considering they are a quote "fan-favorite" it makes more financial sense to include a more less well know civ and bring out the Zulu as the first big post expansion DLC.

 

[Gucumatz]

Never said it was the only one, but it was by far the most advanced and most relevant. There simply isn't enough info about these other people, they were too small and most people don't even know about them, not even in South America. To put them is like putting an Alien civ, it would be just as good and they would to make up things just as much.

Really, it's impossible.

Not really. Some of the ones he mentioned (I.e. Huari and Chachapoya are completely different from examples like the Mapuche).

The Huari and Chachapoya in this example were both heavily populated civilizations that revolutionzed South America. And both while not as famous have quite a bit of modern research being done on them and are being revealed to be as very significant civs.

The Chachapoya for example had cities comparable to the size of Maya Cities and among the largest in the world respectively at the time too (But only again because European cities were so small and insignificant and Chinese cities had been decimated).

Tiahuanaco revolutionzed religion in South America.

And while a lot of these civs mentioned are either near the Andes or in the Andes (Chachapoya for example an Amazonian and Andean Civ, Tiahuanaco an Andean mostly) the reason why these civs are being discussed is because there is actually quite a bit of knowledge on them and because they actually accomplished a lot. They had high populations, interesting architecture, and competed against each other a ton introducing new forms of warfare, technology, trade, etc.


And they are fairly worthy potential South American Civs. And compare their centuries of history and influence to civs like Brazil who are only starting to make an influence in the world these last couple of centuries I think it is quite understandable when people think there are Pre-Colombian South American Civs that would still be better choices than Brazil/Gran Colombia (not that they wouldn't be interesting though).

 

[drubell]

I've been leaning between Zulu and Brazil. I picked Americas because I think I would like to see Brazil more, despite how fun Shaka makes everything in the world.

If it wasn't for the fact that I'm pretty sure we've seen a G&K screenshot that had Quebec City as a city-state I'd say that if Firaxis really wants to be trolls about the last civ it would finally be Canada.

Sumer has been thrown around in the thread but remember, Sumer is already a civ in the game. It's just limited to the Ancient Wonders scenario. And although I do like Sumer in that scenario, I highly doubt they're going to withhold the 9th civ to come out later and say, "Surprise! It's a civ we already have in the game."

 

[Radu_Magus]

Not really. Some of the ones he mentioned (I.e. Huari and Chachapoya are completely different from examples like the Mapuche).

The Huari and Chachapoya in this example were both heavily populated civilizations that revolutionzed South America. And both while not as famous have quite a bit of modern research being done on them and are being revealed to be as very significant civs.

The Chachapoya for example had cities comparable to the size of Maya Cities and among the largest in the world respectively at the time too (But only again because European cities were so small and insignificant and Chinese cities had been decimated).

Tiahuanaco revolutionzed religion in South America.

And while a lot of these civs mentioned are either near the Andes or in the Andes (Chachapoya for example an Amazonian and Andean Civ, Tiahuanaco an Andean mostly) the reason why these civs are being discussed is because there is actually quite a bit of knowledge on them and because they actually accomplished a lot. They had high populations, interesting architecture, and competed against each other a ton introducing new forms of warfare, technology, trade, etc.


And they are fairly worthy potential South American Civs. And compare their centuries of history and influence to civs like Brazil who are only starting to make an influence in the world these last couple of centuries I think it is quite understandable when people think there are Pre-Colombian South American Civs that would still be better choices than Brazil/Gran Colombia (not that they wouldn't be interesting though).

Do you have any sources for them having the largest cities and stuff? And also about their population at that time. I couldn't find anything about it. In fact, all I saw was that they know little about them.

But of course, there's research about it now because just recently they discovered some things related to them, but that's it. How could you forge a Civ in the game from these people if we don't know their cities, their culture, etc? How to make a UU, UA, UB? Also, there are dozens of other "Civs" in history who had the same fate as them, disappearing in time. All in all, as interesting as they might sound, because they are mysterious and whatever, you are giving them too much credit.

EDIT: I found info on the population of the Chachapoyas. A source says it was over 40,000 before the Inca conquest. I mean, c'mon. The Tupis were over 1 million, and I don't think they should be included.

 

[MARDUK80]

Voted for Africa. As there is only four 'African' Civs: Songhai, Carthage, Egypt and Ethiopia. Kongo with Queen Nzinga Mbande or King Nkuwu Nzinga as the leader is a must have. Personally I am not that excited about the Zulu, but would gladly buy them as DLC Civ.

Americas (Inca, Maya, Aztec, Iroquois and America) could use one new Native North American Civ - perhaps either Apache or Seminole would be highly unique and exiting Civ.

Asia (Korea, China, Japan, Mongol, Siam and India) doesn't require a new Civ imho, but if there was a new Asian Civ, Khmer, Vietnam or Kushans would be my choice.

Other: Oceania - would be my second choice. With Indonesia or Australia as the new Civ.

 

[Louis XXIV]

What is very weird from you is the fact that if there's a civilization with a regional power,then it's good enough to be represented . But you made an exception for Brazil,by creating absurd standards that you know they don't fill it . And the most interesting part is the fact that Brazil's Independence and Zulu's Beginning have only 8 years of difference . Why doesn't Zulu didn't fall in the same standards of Brazil ?

I personally think the Zulu are a poor pick. They do have one thing going for them, though, that Brazil does not - they've always been in.

 

[Civciv5]

Indonesia isn't in Oceania but in Asia.

 

[awesome]

Sumer has been thrown around in the thread but remember, Sumer is already a civ in the game. It's just limited to the Ancient Wonders scenario. And although I do like Sumer in that scenario, I highly doubt they're going to withhold the 9th civ to come out later and say, "Surprise! It's a civ we already have in the game."

to be fair, sumer would have a different ability in the actual game than it does in the scenario. and, if they do decide to add it into the game, doing it in an expansion pack would get them out of having to make yet another scenario that has them in it like they do with most of the other dlc. that doesn't necessarily mean they'll do it this time (or at all, but that's implied by the "if").

 

[Kimuyama]

People seem to neglect that there has only been three superpowers.
Like, ever:
The British Empire
the U.S.A
and the U.S.S.R


There are several Great Powers on the verge of being super powers, most notably China and the Eu, both who'll probably be superpowers within the century, as well as several Great Powers that have had almost superpower-like control over their immediate neighbours or known worlds (for example, rome). But none other than those three have ever had the power to practically control the world.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think Great Powers are sufficient. However, I also think Rome, China, Persia, the Ottoman Empire, and a few others were in fact superpowers.

 

[Grapa]

I think it will be either the Sumerians or the Zulus.

Unless they throw in something way out of the left field, like Brazil or Vietnam. Europe already has Austria, the Byzantines, the Celts and the Netherlands, so I doubt they'll be getting any more.

 

[Radu_Magus]

People seem to neglect that there has only been three superpowers.
Like, ever:
The British Empire
the U.S.A
and the U.S.S.R


There are several Great Powers on the verge of being super powers, most notably China and the Eu, both who'll probably be superpowers within the century, as well as several Great Powers that have had almost superpower-like control over their immediate neighbours or known worlds (for example, rome). But none other than those three have ever had the power to practically control the world.

That's highly controversial. It depends a lot on the definition of superpower. If you look at it from an unrivaled military perspective, then we have had many other superpowers. If you call it the power to exert influence on a global scale, then yes, these countries were the closest to that. But not "practically control the world". None of them had or has this power. Perhaps the British got closer to that, but even then.

Today, with the fall of the Soviet Union and the waning influence of the US, I think the term "superpower" is becoming obsolete.

 

[Inhalaattori]

Believe it or not, but the last Civ is Sweden. Im almost certain about it.

 

[bonafide11]

What is very weird from you is the fact that if there's a civilization with a regional power,then it's good enough to be represented . But you made an exception for Brazil,by creating absurd standards that you know they don't fill it . And the most interesting part is the fact that Brazil's Independence and Zulu's Beginning have only 8 years of difference . Why doesn't Zulu didn't fall in the same standards of Brazil ?

I have never said that the Zulu were an ideal choice either. I want a more influential and historical African civilization, or a more historical South American civilization than Brazil if either one is going to be added. My point is that for a MODERN nation to be included, it needs to be a superpower and not a regional power. If it's a historical civilization, then I am fine with it being a regional power.

I don't know how I can be any more clearer about this, but I just have to keep repeating it: I don't like the idea of any modern nation being included unless it made an overwhelmingly significant contribution to modern world history. The only modern nation that fits that is the United States. I am fine with a historical civilization that is a regional power, whether it be from South America, Asia, or Africa. But Brazil is a poor choice because it's a modern nation that has not made that much of a significant impact on modern world history. Yes, Brazil has a unique culture and it's a large country with a good economy, but hell, so is Canada. That does not put it on the same place as the U.S. The U.S. overthrew its colonial rulers and created the first modern republic, which influenced countless other governments. It became the largest economy and military of the modern era. It was the first and only country to ever use nuclear weapons. It was the first and only country to ever set foot on the moon, etc. These are huge achievements that make the U.S. extremely influential over the last 200+ years. Brazil does not compare to these types of achievements. No, neither does Zulu, but I have never said Zulu is the most deserving civilization either.

Now how many more times do I need to repeat that before it sinks in?

 

[JFD]

Perhaps the most obvious criteria for inclusion of a modern, post-colonial nation: be the homeland of the creators and the primary market of the game. I really doubt there is anything more to it than that.

 

[tofofnts]

well at one point it was a 100%

Yes, but that was before civilizations existed, so it would be weird to count it in civilization

 

[CivOasis]

Believe it or not, but the last Civ is Sweden. Im almost certain about it.

I would be rather surprised, given the handling of the "Denmark" DLC.

 

[Gucumatz]

Do you have any sources for them having the largest cities and stuff? And also about their population at that time. I couldn't find anything about it. In fact, all I saw was that they know little about them.

But of course, there's research about it now because just recently they discovered some things related to them, but that's it. How could you forge a Civ in the game from these people if we don't know their cities, their culture, etc? How to make a UU, UA, UB? Also, there are dozens of other "Civs" in history who had the same fate as them, disappearing in time. All in all, as interesting as they might sound, because they are mysterious and whatever, you are giving them too much credit.

EDIT: I found info on the population of the Chachapoyas. A source says it was over 40,000 before the Inca conquest. I mean, c'mon. The Tupis were over 1 million, and I don't think they should be included.

That is not true at all.

Kuelap alone had 40k to 80k. Whatever source you have is pretty bad then.

There are tons of city names for many civs in the Andes. I could name at least 15, and there are even more with Spanish names after them.

Also there are oral traditions and records of UAs, Wars, etc. And not mysterious at all. They stablished a confederation which have documented trade from all within the Americas. Jade, Amazonian goods, etc. were all traded through Chachapoyan alnds at high rates to neighboring civs. They became rich. ANd this is according to Incan sources along with Spanish sources.

And for example everyone knows about Tiwanaku and the Chachapoya being among the most important in shaping religion. Kuelap for example has bodies that were buried there after having traveled miles from all accross South America to have been buried at the important relgious site.

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Again, I think you are just ignorant on this subject. I mean if you are going to say something as ridiculous about a civ that existed for 700-850 years as that they had a population of only 40k kinda of shows you only did a quick wiki search.

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Edit perhaps you saw the city "Chachapoyas" which had a pop of about 40k at one time. (Never the main city of the Chachapoya so perhaps thats where confusion lies).

 

[CivOasis]

Many of the Mesoamerican and Andean cities were larger than many European cities, throughout much of their history. And still are, in their post-colonization equivalents...