Continent of remaining Civ?

[Gucumatz]

Many of the Mesoamerican and Andean cities were larger than many European cities, throughout much of their history. And still are, in their post-colonization equivalents...

Yep. Historically European cities were puny (in population) to Mesoamerican cities and Andean cities.

Cities like Teotihuacan had populations of 300k long before 1,000 A.D. while cities like Paris only had a pop of 20k at 1,000 A.D.

And Paris was one of the most populated cities in Europe at the time.

 

[ehecatzin]

Gucumatz, you got me hooked on Chachapoya, tbh I've never been much into South American precolombian civilizations, as I am with mesoamerican ones, now Im hoping the devs made their research and tought of them too.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Or one could argue pre-Columban America has attracted scholars with very loose methodology who exaggerate population numbers. The evidence doesn't really yield solid information on the topic, yet so many figures go about as if it did.

 

[CivOasis]

Or one could argue pre-Columban America has attracted scholars with very loose methodology who exaggerate population numbers. The evidence doesn't really yield solid information on the topic, yet so many figures go about as if it did.

While many numbers are difficult to gauge, it is well accepted that, at the time of Spanish arrival, Tenochtitlan was at least the fourth-largest city in the world, by population.

 

[ehecatzin]

Yet we also have the accounts of Spaniard when they visited Tenochtitlan, they descrive it as being as large as Constantinople by one of them who visited it. And cities of that magnitude weren't that rare in mesoaemerica, for example Cholula and Tzintzuntzan, both visited and conquered by the Spaniards . and past ones, like Teotihuacan and Tikal.

Not all of them were that massive, actually the mayority of city states gravitated togharts the smaller well fortified kind, but such massive cities werent that far fetched.

 

[Radu_Magus]

That is not true at all.

Kuelap alone had 40k to 80k. Whatever source you have is pretty bad then.

There are tons of city names for many civs in the Andes. I could name at least 15, and there are even more with Spanish names after them.

Also there are oral traditions and records of UAs, Wars, etc. And not mysterious at all. They stablished a confederation which have documented trade from all within the Americas. Jade, Amazonian goods, etc. were all traded through Chachapoyan alnds at high rates to neighboring civs. They became rich. ANd this is according to Incan sources along with Spanish sources.

And for example everyone knows about Tiwanaku and the Chachapoya being among the most important in shaping religion. Kuelap for example has bodies that were buried there after having traveled miles from all accross South America to have been buried at the important relgious site.

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Again, I think you are just ignorant on this subject. I mean if you are going to say something as ridiculous about a civ that existed for 700-850 years as that they had a population of only 40k kinda of shows you only did a quick wiki search.

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Edit perhaps you saw the city "Chachapoyas" which had a pop of about 40k at one time. (Never the main city of the Chachapoya so perhaps thats where confusion lies).

Well, I asked you for sources, and yet you have provided none so far.

I can show where I got the info.

"Garcilaso added that “[the province] then had more than forty thousand
inhabitants, and is extremely inaccessible.” Calancha claimed that more than “twenty
thousand tribute-paying Indians” resided in Chachapoyas. Yet, we will never know the
size of the Chachapoya population on the eve of the Inka conquest in the mid-fifteenth century, despite the abundance of ruined settlements." (http://museoleymebamba.org/chachaarki.website.pdf)

This one says it may have reached 100,000.

"On the eve of the Spanish invasion, the population may have numbered 100,000 individuals, assuming a ratio of one taxpayer for each family of five within two hunus." (http://columbusstate.academia.edu/WarrenChurch/Papers/275692/Chachapoyas_Cultural_Development_at_an_Andean_Cloud_Forest_Crossroads)

Even if it was a bit over that, it still pales in comparison to the Tupi, who were over 1 million and covered a wider area.

Like I said, there isn't enough info to create many cities for them. To put cities of the Andes under their rule just for the sake of it is inventing history. That, along with UA, UB, UU, etc.

And then you go "everyone knows about the Chachapoya being...". Dude, wake up. No one knows these people even existed. I'm talking about 99,9999% of the world's population in the least. Not even in South America people know about them. I'm sorry, you may call me ignorant on Chachapoyas, and I truly am, but it's not mine or anyone's fault that you fell in love with them and now over-estimates their importance.

The truth is that there are dozens of other tribes who lived for centuries but eventually disappeared. The Chachapoyas are just one of them. Any attempt to put them as a Civ would be silly at best, since it wouldn't be truly representative of anyone in South America, especially when the Incas took their place and were much, much more important.

 

[Gucumatz]

And even when populations don't have a good way to estimate as in extremely ancient cities like El Mirador the actual city sizes say a lot.

El Mirador for example has city infrastucture wider than that of Los Angeles and its surrounding area. And thats just only SOME of the surviving stone work at that city which has been discovered.

Doesn't even count the wood based houses, farms, etc. that have since been destroyed or the Stone buidlings which haven't been excavated yet or been destroyed by the centuries.

Again this is another example, and an obscure one at that at how large Mesoamerica and the Andes had become.

 

[Gucumatz]

Well just to provide some sources:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uEe...DvjVQa1PpcFOpxk6ATzswYjFPYjDpd9KrFcDUSaPdMVc=

A video from earlier with evidence of Spanish material and pottery in a Chachapoyan city and that the Civ had existed during the Spanish era as well. WIll get more in a sec.

 

[Gucumatz]

And even in the source you provided it said at least 300,000 people died in Chachapoyan territory uring the time of the Spanish

 

[Radu_Magus]

And even in the source you provided it said at least 300,000 people died in Chachapoyan territory uring the time of the Spanish

Where is that? If you could, please quote the sentence.

 

[Gucumatz]

"European-introduced disease such as
smallpox, measles and diphtheria that swept across Chachapoyas in the wake of the
Spanish invasion."

"In Cochabamba, more than 90 percent of the region’s estimated 300,000 people
had perished. “The Indians are so reduced in number that these lands are almost
depopulated,” "

 

[CivOasis]

While, unfortunately, many native American peoples are little known, there are many well-known ones who are not in the game.

Similarly, there are several lesser-known nations in the Civ games already. I can't admit I knew anything much about Siam or the Zulu beforehand (frankly, before playing a civ game, the "logical" southern African civ, to me, would have been Great Zimbabwe or the Swahili).

 

[Radu_Magus]

"European-introduced disease such as
smallpox, measles and diphtheria that swept across Chachapoyas in the wake of the
Spanish invasion."

"In Cochabamba, more than 90 percent of the region’s estimated 300,000 people
had perished. “The Indians are so reduced in number that these lands are almost
depopulated,” "

The region's population, it doesn't say they were all Chachapoyas, especially because by that time, they were already under the rule of the Incas. So it was more Incas than Chachapoyas.

 

[Gucumatz]

No they weren't mostly Inca they were still Chachapoya and the conquest was never completed until after the Spanish arrived.

Here are better documents as well explaining those were Chachapoya peoples. And thats only Cochabamba as well. The rest of the Chachapoyan territory was devastated more by the Spanish than by the Inca ever. Full conquest was only possible due to disease.

That is only one territory too. And in fact Chachapoyas the city was still majority Chachapoya even with Spanish Domination.

http://www.mendeley.com/research/biology-conquest-effects-inka-imperialism-chachapoya-peru/

http://www.mendeley.com/research/so...structure-dynamics-inka-imperial-borderlands/

And in the same source you even gave it said most of the Incan labor was Chachapoyan. The Chachapoyas actually were a much larger population in Inca land than Inca ever was in Chachapoya.

 

[Gucumatz]

Laimebamba, Laguna de los Cóndores, Chachapoyas, were all historical Chachapoyan cities for centuries that had only became conquered in the last 30 years. With historical animosity and it was in the middle of Chachapoyan territory when the Inca themselves were being decimated where in fact there were actually still more Chachapoya providing labor outside of Chachapoyan land says something.

Also the article you posted mentions los Valles de Moyobambaand the Spanish noted it for its particular high population. Another heavy populated Chachapoya stronghold with several mountain cities/ruins/forts.

 

[Gucumatz]

Also a link detailing the UNESCO site at Kuelap:

http://whc.unesco.org/fr/listesindicatives/5650/

Detailing how amazing architecturlarly it was. The city is more than 3,000 meters above sea level and uses 3x more stone than the Pyramids.

 

[Radu_Magus]

No they weren't mostly Inca they were still Chachapoya and the conquest was never completed until after the Spanish arrived.

Here are better documents as well explaining those were Chachapoya peoples. And thats only Cochabamba as well. The rest of the Chachapoyan territory was devastated more by the Spanish than by the Inca ever. Full conquest was only possible due to disease.

That is only one territory too. And in fact Chachapoyas the city was still majority Chachapoya even with Spanish Domination.

http://www.mendeley.com/research/biology-conquest-effects-inka-imperialism-chachapoya-peru/

http://www.mendeley.com/research/so...structure-dynamics-inka-imperial-borderlands/

And in the same source you even gave it said most of the Incan labor was Chachapoyan. The Chachapoyas actually were a much larger population in Inca land than Inca ever was in Chachapoya.

All you are saying contradicts the source I presented, and you have presented no source to back up your argument. These papers are inaccessible.

Look:

"The Inka presence in Chachapoyas amounted to a brief, yet intense, 60 or so years. The Inkas not only made an impact on local religion and language, but also transformed the region politically, imposing strict control over the local population and reshuffling the power of the kurakas. Topa Inka divided the province into administrative units of tribute payers composed of pachaka (100), waranqa (1,000), and hunu (10,000) heads of household. The entire province is said to have contained three hunu, or 30,000 tribute paying heads of household, but this could be an ideal number.

Moreover, the Inka dispatched the Chachapoya as mitmaq—colonists—to other
parts of the empire, sending them as far away as Lake Titicaca, where there is still a
town on the Copacabana peninsula called Chachapoyas. By some estimates, the Inka
shipped out as much as 50 percent of the population, while others were simply killed.

In turn, the Inka resettled the region with bureaucrats from Cusco, potters and
farmers from other parts of the realm, as well as with people loyal to the Inka emperor
and whose mere presence foiled local foment."

 

[Gucumatz]

Did you check the sources I provided? A lot of this is being still debated on how the Chachapoya were destroyed. The sources I presented showed diseases ended up killing more and in fact historic cities like Kuelap did not fall to the Inca conquest but rather to the Spanish or until after the Spanish arrived with the remains of the Inca empire.

The National Geographic special I posted talks about this. Cochabamba was killed in many parts but like I said Chachapoyas was still a majority Chachapoya city. The conquest you detail is of southern Cochabamba. Southern Cochabamba's population was depleted of Chachapoya for sure, but there were still plenty of Chachapoya. And it still doesn't change the fact pre 1400 this was a heavy populated area of the Chachapoya.

But the Southern Chachapoya destruction does not mean they were conquered yet as seen by the National Geographic special.

 

[Gucumatz]

At around 18 minutes in the video it talks about how it had been suspected some of these sites had fallen around the 1470s but then throughout speaks about how in fact new archaeological evidence says this is not true. In fact vast parts of the Chachapoya were not conquered until much later. And in fact there is evidence that the Chachapoya continued to existed even until 1570.

40 YEARS after the Inca's collapse.

 

[CivOasis]

Erm.. I can confirm that, for at least some of those sources, we/I can't access them.