Continent of remaining Civ?

[Radu_Magus]

Conquest doesn't mean killing them all. From all I've seen, the Incas were colonizing them, imposing taxes on them. They were in control, despite rebellions. Of course the Spanish killed more Chachapoyas, that was their goal, not the Incas'. The part I quoted shows how the Incas did it. And as I put, two different sources put the population of Chachapoyas at 100,000 (at best) before the Spanish invasion.

 

[Gucumatz]

Where does it say 100,000 in your link? I didn't see it anywhere. And will get a link showing Kuelap's population alone was 40k-80k.

And the fact is Kuelap wasn't conquered and neither were the northern cities. They weren't even colonized. Nor touched by the Inca.

 

[Radu_Magus]

Where does it say 100,000 in your link? I didn't see it anywhere. And will get a link showing Kuelap's population alone was 40k-80k.

And the fact is Kuelap wasn't conquered and neither were the northern cities. They weren't even colonized. Nor touched by the Inca.

My second source that I put before: "On the eve of the Spanish invasion, the population may have numbered 100,000 individuals, assuming a ratio of one taxpayer for each family of five within two hunus."

Everything you say you don't back up with sources. Everywhere I look I find "Chachapoyas fell to the Incas". Only you say otherwise.

Now here it says they did take Kuelap: "*This is believed to be the last group overtaken by the Incas. See article: Ancient Inca Tomb Found which is believed to be the proof that Incas took over the land of the Chachapoyas at Kuelap." (http://sweetondough.typepad.com/death_defying_geography_m/2011/07/kuelap-fortress-archaeology-site-dr-alfredo-narvaez.html

I'm starting to think you are the last of the Chachapoyas.

 

[CivOasis]

I'll be honest, Magnus, you're the first time I've ever heard of anything but a Spanish-Incan alliance doing the Chachapoya in. While I admit that I am more interested in this region than most, that doesn't change the knowledge in existence.

 

[Radu_Magus]

I'll be honest, Magnus, you're the first time I've ever heard of anything but a Spanish-Incan alliance doing the Chachapoya in. While I admit that I am more interested in this region than most, that doesn't change the knowledge in existence.

Wow, wait, where and when did I say that? I never said the Spanish and the Inca has an alliance against the Chachapoya. The Chachapoya were under the rule of the Inca at the time, the Spanish just came and conquered them all. That's it, that's what these sources say.

 

[CivOasis]

Exactly. I am aware of what you said, I am saying that's the first time I ever heard it said. I have always heard Gucumatz's version of events.

 

[Gucumatz]

http://www.multilingualarchive.com/ma/dewiki/en/Chachapoya

A bad article here, but with many sources. Clearly a German article poorly translated but states that right before the Spanish arrived the Chachapoya population was about 500,000. And let me get to your quote now.

=====

And no am half Kaqchikel (A Maya people )

 

[Gucumatz]

Radu. I just typed in your exact quote to search it in the source. It does not exist. And never says 100,000 people were all th at was left of the Chachapoya.

And this is from the source:

"Yet, we will never know the
size of the Chachapoya population on the eve of the Inka conquest in the mid-fifteenth
century, despite the abundance of ruined settlements. Were all these sites occupied
simultaneously? Only a systematic study of settlement patterns and changes in
architecture over time, coupled with archaeological excavations and carbon14 dates will
reveal the region’s complete occupation history."

 

[Radu_Magus]

Ahh, ok. Cool then. To be honest, I didn't know much about that Chachapoyas, and it's interesting indeed. But there are many tribes like them in history, who were around and then disappeared. As interesting as they might sound, nothing merits their inclusion as a Civ.

 

[CivOasis]

Same can be said of Europe.

 

[Gucumatz]

Quite a lot merits their inclusion. Their architecture, actual facts of them being the most trade based civ in South America and arguably in the Americas. Their wide spread prior to the Inca. Etc.

They have much more going for them than a Brazil to say.

 

[Radu_Magus]

Quite a lot merits their inclusion. Their architecture, actual facts of them being the most trade based civ in South America and arguably in the Americas. Their wide spread prior to the Inca. Etc.

They have much more going for them than a Brazil to say.

That's like saying the Iroquois have more going for them than the United States. Really, c'mon.

As for the German thing, it looks pretty dodgy and unreliable.

And the 100,000 thing I took from the second source (that you've ignored once again): http://columbusstate.academia.edu/WarrenChurch/Papers/275692/Chachapoyas_Cultural_Development_at_an_Andean_Cloud_Forest_Crossroads

Both these sources give more scientific accounts of the estimated population. Of course, it's impossible to know the correct amount, but from 100,000 at best to 500,000 it's a long shot. Also, the German article might mean the population of the whole region under Inca rule.

 

[Gucumatz]

And to think we barely touched on one of your favorites Tiwanaku CivOasis .

Or the Wari/Huari.

 

[Radu_Magus]

And really, Gucumatz, I could present here many sources from the Internet saying they fell to the Incas. Everywhere it says that. If you don't believe it and don't provide reliable sources saying otherwise, then I don't see the point of continuing this discussion.

 

[Gucumatz]

Ah your second source, was looking into your first source which in fact suggested they had much more than 100,000 several times.

Which page on your second source does it say this

A whole book is hard for me to look through quickly

 

[CivOasis]

Well, Magnus, we can't see your link. And, again, the "Incan rule" thing is something I've never heard of before.

As for inclusion, there's a pretty big jump from the Iriquois to the Mesoamericans and Andeans (not that I think they shouldn't be included, just saying that we aren't using the same comparison).

I terms of comparison, this is a nation larger than many European nations of the time, with a more diverse group under its rule.

And what exactly seperates it from European nations who got conquered, beyond that it isn't part of Western culture? It has similar accomplishments, so the "historical" argument isn't particularly valid, even if we draw (as Westerners, mostly) our culture from that of other Western nations.

 

[CivOasis]

And to think we barely touched on one of your favorites Tiwanaku CivOasis .

Or the Wari/Huari.

Or Teotihuacan

 

[Gucumatz]

Second source provides a nice map of territory and a few cities (There are tons more Chachapoyan Ruins than listed just here though )

On page 3

 

[Radu_Magus]

Page 917, Gucumatz. And a bit before it talks about the Inca conquest, its rule, etc.

CivOasis, like I said, the Tupis were greater in number and covered a greater area. Also, they left a greater influence today. Still, I don't think they should be included, they were not a Civ.

 

[CivOasis]

Ooph. Don't use the "not a civ" argument. The classical definition of a civilization is highly controversial, as it excludes nearly all non-Western cultures, even in modern times.
Nevermind that, by that definition, almost everything in the game, with the possible exception of China, is "not a civ".