Cookbook #1 (Sally, Immortal)

[Olafeson]

Continued with my own save to turn 110. But i will post another savegame with the #Nr.1 of my picks. In this case Samuel_996

@Fippy : Can i play another turnset (T70 - T 110) with Samuel_996 save and post it too? Want to see if the failgold would have been a better choice.

 

[krikav]

That would go against the rules as I have understod them.
You play one save with no reloading. This is the save you submit.
After that, you can play any number of saves you like, but you have to stop at T110. But these secondary games can't be submitted.

I did the same in the first turnset, replayed T0->T45, but this was of record.
When discussion starts, I'll be interested to hear how this secondary game with Samuels save turned out!

 

[Fippy]

You can play another game yup, as you submitted your main one already.
But as Krikav wrote, please keep the 2nd one for yourself until later, then you can post it as "fun game" for others while we discuss.

 

[Samuel_996]

Hi all, thanks to those who indicated my save looked decent, and sorry I didn't chip into the week 2 discussion. Been super busy IRL. Looking forward to playing the next turnset and hopefully posting tomorrow. Best wishes!

 

[Samuel_996]

Double post alert (sorry). Here's my turnset, playing from my own save (which itself came from Mscellaneous' start)

 

[krikav]

Spoiler specialist vs cottages :

I just realized something. While it feels intuitive that getting 1 more is the value of half a specialist, it really isn't that simple. In my save there are 2 farmed fps they can support an extra specialist compared to 2 cottaged fps. So 4+4+0. However, cottages are 3+3+2(a grassland cottage!). They are even in food, so they should be compared, not just give an extra pop to the specialist route (although it does reaches higher size a bit faster).

So a specialist needs to beat not two, but three cottages. Well, it does clearly beat 3 unmatured cottages (2+2+2) when farms+rep spec is (1+1+6) (even ignoring library bonus). But cottages will catch up quickly, and then there is bureaucracy which strongly favors cottages. However, the main benefit of running specialists has always been , but it's value is not easily put into a mathematical formula. If we value a GS at ~1500, the first 100 points are worth 15 and a specialist generates 3-points so +45 per turn , but then it goes down rather quickly. And obviously cottage-routes aren't ignoring ... So maybe it would be fair to say these -points will lead to the birth of 5th , making the cost 500-points. Still, that's 3*1500/500= +9 extra for the scientist. I know, these are all just assumptions that might be inaccurate, or at least depending on a number of factors.

No definite conclusion, except that running specialists that don't lead to the birth of is in general bad, even under rep (but I guess everybody knew that already). Cottages are good, because they don't lose food!

Yes, it's very difficult to really give a fitting comparisson between cottages and specialists.
What I really value about farming compared to cottaging though, is that it's more flexible. Cottages are just cottages. They have to be worked to mature, and when they are mature you feel obliged to work them.
With farms (and caste) you can turn the surplus food into what your most urgent need is at the time.
I usually workshop alot of plains, not because thats a good tile to work, but because it's good to quickly turn surplus food into hammers.
Also, in this regard I think that plains hills are abit underrated, they are obviously nothing thats good to work all the time. But when you need hammers, you usually need alot of them quickly!

 

[Fippy]

One of the most interesting topics yup,
there are a couple hmm opinions like "try avoiding fp farms" and ph mines floating around.
Kossin was one of the first top players who made arguments pro fp farms, and that ideally workers change improvements as needed.

"Burst" yield as Krikav wrote already can often be really helpful, example pro fp farm:
We have a city with fish + 1fp + couple green rivers.
Plan here could be granary - library - 2 scientists for a bulb or academy.
We have only 1 worker close, who can start putting up cottages cos city will grow rather fast (workboat was in place),
their faster build speed would help avoiding unimproved tiles worked.
Or we could think ahead, accept an unimproved tiles phase, and start farming..
so we can whip both granary + library a bit quicker, food will be needed for scientists afterwards too.
Later with granary help, we may want all those river tiles on cottages (i.e. if in Iso, and no plans for Caste),
when more worker turns are available and our city eyes it's happy cap.

 

[sampsa]

Interesting, Fippy. If I need to farm some tiles, I think clearly fps are the ones to be farmed. So I'd say "try avoiding grass farms" and obv avoid plains farms. I understand it was not your opinion to not farm fp.

 

[sampsa]

Also, in this regard I think that plains hills are abit underrated, they are obviously nothing thats good to work all the time. But when you need hammers, you usually need alot of them quickly!

Well, if you need hammers quickly, you can whip? I certainly am one who really doesn't like (plains) mines, but certainly with some poor -cap situations they are the best thing available.

 

[krikav]

Sometimes the whip isn't the answer, or at least not the full answer.
Wonders is a obvious example, but so is costly buildings such as a forge. Getting the first 30 hammers into a forge to be able to 3-pop whip instead of waiting aeons for a 4-pop whip.
You can do some whip overflowing, but that requires abit of happines, and if you are only missing say 12 hammers, working 3 PH-mines for a turn sets you up for the whip!

Also, you can have a city that is very difficult to grow in population due to low food.
Such a city you don't want to whip much at all, save for some 1pop whips early in the game.

I had such a city placed on the marble in NC200 recently.

That city did a lot of burst production by starving down the food bank during the game.
When I didn't need production, I had a small food surplus and filled the food bank.
When I needed production, tiles where changed to hammertiles while the food bank diminished. Similar to how you starve out great people.

You can do some interesting things with settlers/workers too. Accelerating production by letting your city starve while you build them.
Essentially converting the food in your bank into hammers for a settler/worker build.

 

[krikav]

I just have to air a tip that I learned only recently. Regarding whip overflow:

Spoiler :

It's a neat trick because it shows how being too confident in different things can harm your games.

I long ago came to the conclusion that whipping warriors was a insane thing to do, that you should never ever do it. This was a axiom or a given truth for me.
So the trick that I later learned flyed under my radar for quite some time.

The trick is to whip a warrior (or scout!), lose some hammers but get a 15H overflow.
Where can you apply this? Well, the example at hand was with small seafood islands, where you want to do a 1pop whip of lighthouse and/or granary. Doing 1 or 2 such warrior whips gives you the necessery first 30 hammers, so that you can then 1pop whip your 60H building.
Growing to pop4 with 1F2C coastal tiles can be painful.

 

[sampsa]

Sometimes the whip isn't the answer, or at least not the full answer.
Wonders is a obvious example, but so is costly buildings such as a forge. Getting the first 30 hammers into a forge to be able to 3-pop whip instead of waiting aeons for a 4-pop whip.
You can do some whip overflowing, but that requires abit of happines, and if you are only missing say 12 hammers, working 3 PH-mines for a turn sets you up for the whip!

Well, if you need to wait for aeons to reach size 8 to 4-pop whip (but are size 6 to 3-pop whip) you either didn't have many good tiles available or chose to not maximize food. Indeed a high hammer-tile comes to the rescue here, but the reason is that there aren't better tiles available. Growing from 6->8 takes 35, so even a 3-tile is vastly superior to 4-tile.

Again, I do agree that sometimes 4-tile is the best thing available, but often there are superior alternatives.

When I didn't need production, I had a small food surplus and filled the food bank.
When I needed production, tiles where changed to hammertiles while the food bank diminished. Similar to how you starve out great people.

You can do some interesting things with settlers/workers too. Accelerating production by letting your city starve while you build them.
Essentially converting the food in your bank into hammers for a settler/worker build.

Yes, this is cute, since you can give the food-tile to another city.

 

[Powerfaker]

I think Krikav makes good points about PH's. It's not like you move your settler 1 tile further to get PH's in the BFC. But when you have them, you may have more options / more efficiency potential.
Another example is when you build settlers/workers. Food and hammers are equal, so a mined PH is better than a farmed grassland or unimproved FP (and mining PH is less turns than farming FP), especially for IMP/EXP leaders.

Here's my T110 save. Moved on with my own T70, based on Olafeson's T45.

 

[sampsa]

I think Krikav makes good points about PH's. It's not like you move your settler 1 tile further to get PH's in the BFC. But when you have them, you may have more options / more efficiency potential.
Another example is when you build settlers/workers. Food and hammers are equal, so a mined PH is better than a farmed grassland or unimproved FP (and mining PH is less turns than farming FP), especially for IMP/EXP leaders.

+1 per turn for 5 worker turns (one for moving on the hill, 4 for actual mining), doesn't sound that great to me. A farmed floodplain on the other hand, 7 worker turns, but a much much stronger 4-yield as you can use it to grow, not just to stagnate. EXP/IMP matters a bit, although whipping workers/settlers is way better with them, too. Again, mines do have some use, but the more you investigate the mathematics of the game the worse they seem to be.

 

[floydmcw]

...
Please play until turn 110, where you can save & post your game.
Closes on Monday 17th (6 days)

Can I post a T110 save on the 17th? I am still looking through the T70 saves .

 

[c^3]

My attempt at T110.

 

[Fippy]

Yep you can, floyd.
We will continue tomo

 

[floydmcw]

Yep you can, floyd.
We will continue tomo

Thanks! It might be pretty late because I'm on the west coast of North America, not sure what time zone you're in. Already up to T88 but I may not finish this morning.

 

[Tonny]

Had to rush it, but here it is. Continued from my own t70 save, which came from Olafeson's t45 save.

 

[Gumbolt]

Not yet had a chance to play. Would be after work tomorrow if I did.