Cookbook #1 (Sally, Immortal)

[Major Tom]

I'm really trying to present reasoned arguments.
I'm abit annoyed that what I reason is overlooked, just because I try to spice up my post with some humanity.
No problem though, and I'll try to restate my post again, but with more formal language.


It is possible to get GPeople faster with the aid of early wonders. Other means are also possible, the madrassa is a obvious example of this close at hand. A similar example is with egypt and their UB monument with two priest slots.


The two scenarios that has to be weighted against each other is:
Scenario 1 - Standard library powered 2 scientists generated GScientist.
We know for sure we will get a GScientist at turn X.


Scenario 2 - An accelerated generation of GPerson, assisted with aid of wonders and/or other specialists.
We know you will get a GPerson of unknown kind at turn X-Y.
2a. We get a GScientist, Y turns earlier than in scenario 1.
2b. We get a GPhropet.
2c. We get a GSpy.

In scenario 1, we can tailor our entire strategy around the fact that we will get a GSci at turn X.
In scenario 2, we first need contingency plans for 2b and 2c and for scenario 2 to be considered superior to scenario 1 we also need to somehow see how reap any benefit of 2a compared to scenario 1, how can we benefit from the earlier GSci?

I reason that 2b and 2c is often strictly worse than 1.
Furthermore, I have a hard time seeing how 2a would be superior to 1. Getting your first GScientist a few turns earlier is nice, but how to leverage on this?
The best comparable case I know of, is that with PHI-leaders where the possibility for a fast library to bulb maths is nice.

If we do agree that 2b and 2c are worse than 1.
And that you somehow convince me that 2a is better than 1
Then we can start to compare the "worseness" of 2b&c with the "betterness" of 2a, and then take the relative probabilities of 2a, 2b and 2c into account.
Only then we can make an assessment if 2 as a total can be considered superior to 1.

I just wanted to cheer you up from the pessimism with an scientific approach no hard feelings. Your next post is a nice and well structured overview but a bit puzzled that the scientist now arrives too early (2a). Don't an early arrival also mean subsequent arrivals will be earlier (also in 2b and 2c), everything else equal? Anyway, start working on numbers and assessment of better and worse is perhaps a vaste as people have different views of good and bad in scenarios. And different maps will be played out for real, with or without polluted pools. Let us have a judgement how bad and good actually turned out after.

Edit: Being SPI, you pretty much can tailor when and what GP you want with caste pacifism on board

 

[krikav]

I'm not saying that it arrives "too early" in 2a. It arrives earlier. If one wants to make a case that this is better, one has to present an argument on how this earlier arrival of the GScientist can be leveraged to an advantage.
I gave an example with Phi, where you can get a GSci very early and bulb math. But since I am the one who needs to get convinced that accelerated GPerson could have benefits, I want to hear arguments from proponents of the strategy.

Spoiler Calculations of GPerson arrival with or without wonders. :

If we just read what Olafeson himself write about his plan:
"I don t want to build more than 2 libraries for now. I want one in my capital (for extra commerce) and one at clam city (Medina?) to run 2 scientists to get the GPP for Great scientists going. Maybe a bit later one more in SH/TGW city for more GPP."

Lets say I really want a GScientist at some point, what are my chances of getting one and when?
From the T70 save, we are one turn away from sailing, and after that we have 25 gold in the bank. Adjusting the slider shows me that we can then reach writing in 7 turns.
So writing at T78.
Most likely candidate is Medina, since capital will likely still be working on pyramids at T78.
Medina can be set up to be ready for a 3-pop whip at T79 and we will have a library at T80.
Most likely we would want to regrow abit first, but do we have time...?
If we assign 2 scientists right away we could theoretically get a GSci at T97.

We have these GPP in Damascus and the wonders generating more points. How does this play out?
At T70, we have 28/100 GPP in Damascus. If we don't do anything at all, we have a 54% chance for a GProphet and 56% chance for a GSpy at T98.

Say we want to tech something else, or if we don't want to 3-pop whip a madrassa immediatly, or perhaps we want to regrow closer to happy-cap first, and Medina loses the race against Damascus.
When will I get my precious GScientist?

Say I'm 5 turns behind, and start working with 2 scientists in medina at T85.
At T98 when I get my Prophet/Spy, I will be at 78 GPP in medina.
But now it's not enough with 100GPP, the goalpost is moved to 200.
If I persist with 2 scientists, I get my beloved GSci at T119.

Your first GSci at T119 instead of ~T100 could be just fine.
If we also run two scientists at Mecca after pyramids, GPerson arrival should look roughly like this:
T98 Prophet/Spy
T115 GEng (25%) GSci (75%)
T135 GSci

If no wonders where built, and we instead start two cities with two scientists at T85 and T90, the two GScientists will arrive from those two cities at T97 and T124.

 

[Major Tom]

So you don't want his save to be voted on at all?

 

[Fippy]

So you don't want his save to be voted on at all?

Questions like those should be asked in pm pls.
Players can only promote their own saves, or point out when they spot weaknesses in others, but they may never "downvote" others anyways.

Different topic, i encourage everybody to think about
a) putting long posts, i.e. with deep strategic thoughts on one topic, into spoilers
b) considering if quoting others is really needed, if those inserted quotes are half a page long

We need some structure in (very active) cookbook threads, peoples will have to browse many posts and everyone can contribute in making reading easier for them.

edit: merci @krikav, for already doing so.

 

[krikav]

Not really sure how you come to that conclusion. I'm not doing these calculations simply tomake a case against @Olafeson or his save.
Just want to have a fruitful discussion, revealing as much info and ideas as possible.
I present these calculations to shed light upon why I think GPP pollution is an issue.

I tried to take this to heart: "Think we should stick to maths and probabilities."
And then I provide some material to help answer this question of yours:
"Don't an early arrival also mean subsequent arrivals will be earlier (also in 2b and 2c), everything else equal?"

 

[Major Tom]

I present these calculations to shed light upon why I think GPP pollution is an issue.

You did that very well! Issue, problem or whatever you like to call it, conclusion was, as I understand , it was not Best Play. Only Best played is to be voted on.

 

[sampsa]

You all mentioned either to use a Great Spy either for a Espionage mission to get +3000 or to settle him for some extra with Rep and 12.
correct me if i am wrong here, but i thought espionage economy works via building Scotland yard in capital. Using your espionage slider at 100 %, building spies and steal techs the whole game. Together with a nice Bureaucracy capital with cottages and the 100% from Scotland yard (essentially same convertion rate as Oxford, pretty insane when i think about it). Other neat stuff like putting them into anarchy or switch their religions.

!!!!!!!! Or very evil, lets poison their water. PAYBACK TIME you PUNKS. You deserved it.

Of course we do not have Mansa Musa or Justinian as our neighbours. Just a lousy shaka and QIn.

Pretty out of the box for me at least (but what do I know). SY does indeed give +100%, a double %-bonus of an academy, but also infiltrating gives roughly double of what bulbing does, so it scales correctly. While I do love creative plays and I'm sure a player of your abilities can make it work and you will win the game in a crushing manner, I just see the proposed strategy as very inefficient, especially on this map (immortal, neighbors who don't tech well).

 

[sampsa]

You did that very well! Issue, problem or whatever you like to call it, conclusion was, as I understand , it was not Best Play. Only Best played is to be voted on.

Discussion is getting a weird flavor. How are we supposed to discuss strategies without trying to make conclusions that some play is better than another play? You shouldn't care what other people vote, what you think they should vote or what you think they think you should vote. You should vote what YOU think is the best play.

There is absolutely no problem.

 

[Major Tom]

Discussion is getting a weird flavor. How are we supposed to discuss strategies without trying to make conclusions that some play is better than another play? You shouldn't care what other people vote, what you think they should vote or what you think they think you should vote. You should vote what YOU think is the best play.

There is absolutely no problem.

To me the last pages have been a onesided attack on Olafesons save. That's all.
Btw, since you mentioned it, I don't care about other people's voting. They are pretty predictable anyway.

 

[sampsa]

To me the last pages have been a onesided attack on Olafesons save. That's all.
Btw, since you mentioned it, I don't care about other people's voting. They are pretty predictable anyway.

I have not seen any attacking tone so far in the presented analysis nor any reason to get emotional. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

 

[Olafeson]

Okay, i took my time now and i think i have figured out the 3 saves i want to vote for. i think they are the strongest ones this turnset. This time it was quite a tough decision, besides that they are also very similar. The saves with pyramids closest to completion and also failgold for further teching, as well as the ones who have not settled the fish are the strongest in my opinion.


1) Samuel_996

Spoiler :

+ They pyramids will finish rather early. With 2 more forests to chop and already a lot of hammers into it, i think around turn 75-78.
+ a lot of hammers for failgold in SH, also GW chops still available
+ 5 cities and 4 workers, all 5 cities well placed
+ soon has writing, surely not as early as other saves but just in time to build madrassas
+ 5 cottages (3FP cottages) at the river

- not yet used the opportunity to trade or gift shaka some resources for relation
- needs some more warriors for city garrison (happy faces)

2) Sampsa

Spoiler :

+ he got really a lot of failgold out of SH.
+ TGW can still be used for more failgold
+ pyramids on the way, but not as fast as in the save of Samuel_996
+ writing on the way
+ 4 cities / 4 workers and 1 settler out for 5th city
+ already has finished 3 granaries
+ the axeman will be the final solution for the barb problem

- even though 5th settler is out, the other saves have 5th city already settled
- i think the floodplains could have needed more cottages and less farms. Guess you want to run scientists, but still.

3) Major_Tom

Spoiler :

+ pyramids will be finished soon (Turn 77-78 probably)
+ he got a decent amount of failgold, not as much as Sampsa and Samuel_996 though
+ writing nicely timed to build madrassas after Pyramids and core expansion
+ 2 more settlers in rpoduction
+ 5 workers
+ cottages on the floodplains
+ good fogbusting

- only on 4 cities for now
- no trades to shaka yet for trade relations

 

[krikav]

I have not seen any attacking tone so far in the presented analysis nor any reason to get emotional. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Fitting comparisson, since this is a cookbook.

@Major Tom
If @Olafeson feels "attacked" I appolagize. He has played in an interesting way that have awoke many thoughts and questions on my part, and I'm trying to twist and turn it in as many ways that I can, to see if there is something I can learn from it.
I have wrestled with this GPP "pollution" in many games, and if there is some tricks that elleviate the problems I have, I really want to know.

And if you feel attacked in his stead I appolagize to you as well. Perhaps I could have expressed myself more clear, or more diplomatic in a few places.
But really, I'm just trying to present the best critical questions that I can.
I do think that we get the most out of this excersise if we are not afriad speak what we believe is true, even if it risks offending others.

 

[Major Tom]

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

OK, I withdraw. As expected expansionst dogma still prevail.
Withdrawal counts for CB2 also.

 

[Olafeson]

I will make one short summary to defend my decision to go for the early wonders. Since there are benefits but also negative aspects.
After that i want to focus on the other saves and maybe hear someone else promote their save too.

Since @Fippy mentioned we do not want to go for a cultural victory or AP victory on this map. So these 2 options are out and make
the 2 wonders overall weaker in general.


Good :

Spoiler :

+ Barb safety due to TGW
+ Free Monuments, allows for alternative settling with better position
+ Potential for bulbing Theology, getting Christianity as our own religion
+ Own religion lets us build or SPI cheap temples (40hammers), later potential to build the holy shrine for religion spread and gold

+ possible to get a Great Spy to either settle with Rep or build Scotland yard and make use of the espionage slider
+ easier to get Shaka and QIn to pleased or friendly if we grab our own religion with help of a Great Prophet

+ overall greater GPP production
+ could build more wonders in this city and use it as National epic spot for even more GP
+ can use the Great persons for Golden ages too

Bad:

Spoiler :

- hammers and forest could have gone into settler/workers or pyramids
- so i could have 6 cities instead of 5 now, maybe a worker more too
- the pyramids will definetly be delayed for a few turns since i build them in capital now, and not in the stone city which used to have lots of forests

- GPP pollution in one city
- if we want to get mainly Great Scientists, this will be a bit harder due to the GPP pollution

- no failgold for earlier teching
- maybe Astronomy/ Philosophy/Civil Service/ Education/Lib bulb will be later or due to GPP pollution we could get another GP instead of a Great Scientist
- we can still get our own religion without the need of bulbing it with a Great Prophet

- will be harder to build an academy in capital if we wanted to

After that is said, i agree that maybe if we decide to go for an astronomy/optics or philosophy bulb we could get screwed over. Surely astronomy is an important tech in a continents game. But in this particular game not as essential like in isolation or semi isolation with only 1 A.I.

We have trading partners, we have good land.

We could attack with Engineering or go for Lib and double bulb Education, going for cuirs or saving the Great Prophet/great Spys for later golden ages. Attack with steel possible too. Construction attack not really necessary i think. Or bulb chemistry for an attack with canons/maces/knights (or later with rifles)

If that is the case we still have more than enough time to prepare and grow other cities to run Great Scientists during a Golden Age (assisted with Pacifism or national epic). So the (undesired) Great Persons can always be saved for a Golden Age.

 

[Olafeson]

OK, I withdraw. As expected expansionst dogma still prevail.
Withdrawal counts for CB2 also.

Oh, that is quite sad to hear. Can we not convince you to stay around? Another loss after @Undefeatable on our way?
Besides that you played a really good turnset in my opinion. Voted you for 3th place this turnset.

 

[krikav]

After that i want to focus on the other saves and maybe hear someone else promote their save too.

I agree, it's awfully quiet!

Thanks for the summary btw!

 

[Major Tom]

Besides that you played a really good turnset in my opinion.

Thank you Nice to hear.
Might return when the format of this series have been more established and people stop accusing others for inefficiency and start presenting own plans.

 

[Fish Man]

Thank you Nice to hear.
Might return when the format of this series have been more established and people stop accusing others for inefficiency and start presenting own plans.

I thought I wasn't really accusing in tone - but apologize if I came across that way. I'm sure everyone else intended no offense either and didn't want to accuse - just try to point out flaws and debate the best course of action.

I agree with your call to present plans, in fact - barely anyone has said what the heck they plan to tech next, how to attack, what to bulb, etc. Of course I already did all that with my personal fish game so I have to keep silent to maintain fairness, but I'll just say that both astro bulb and cuir rush are viable at this point. Less popular, but still valid I feel, are bulb crossbows, engineering rush, lib cannons, or just go ham with catapults (hey, you have copper). Finally, religious and spy economy are possible, but at this point I personally am skeptical. Feel free to prove me wrong though! Now that you've dropped out, I encourage you to play 'til the end with @Olafeson 's save and show these stubborn traditionalists what your strategy is capable of, similar to how I did with the Fish Save.

 

[Olafeson]

If @Olafeson feels "attacked" I appolagize.

It is okay, i do not feel attacked. No hurt feelings over some forum discussion.
Also what is this abomination "appolagize" ? Yikes! I need to correct it : "I apologize".

 

[Major Tom]

I'm not saying that it arrives "too early" in 2a. It arrives earlier. If one wants to make a case that this is better, one has to present an argument on how this earlier arrival of the GScientist can be leveraged to an advantage.

Here, this:

I usually want a few GScientists early for:
1) An academy, which is very much on the table in this game.
2) Bulb math if I'm in rush/warmode.

Under other circumstances (marble, other techpath) bulbing maths also has the additional benefit of trying CS slingshot. Perhaps not viable in an early REX world tho.

Btw, like your enthusiasm on these forums