COR1: The un-Militaristic Celts.

[AndrewN]

Originally posted by Kaiser_Berger
IT- Philosophy discovered, and our free tech is….Literature Research now set to Code of Laws as to get to Republic ASAP. I leave our science rate fairly low as to make a slight profit.

I do so love Philosophy in C3C.

Has anybody worked out what wonders we need for our golden age? I assume our UU isn't going to trigger it

 

[Kaiser_Berger]

Ahh yes, it is a beautiful thing

I'm not quite sure....Sistines would get us the religious half, but I have no idea off the top of my head what wonders now have the agricultural tag. Something we should definitely look into.

EDIT: I just took a minute and looked, and our best bet is probably a combo of the Hanging Garden and Sistine. If we could somehow get the Pyramids, that would do it for us in one shot. The HG should be the highest priority, because if we miss it we'll end up waiting until Universal Suffrage for another agricultural wonder. On the other hand, if we miss Sistine for some reason, we can still pick up Bach's for the religious half.

 

[a space oddity]

The Pyramids, Hanging Gardens and surprisingly Universal Suffrage can trigger a GA for Agricultural Civs...

edit: You've beat me to it Berger.

 

[Greebley]

Preturn: Note to self No Barracks . Look over the lands and things look fairly decent. I don't think I have seen that many granaries before. So granaries or Library prebuilds? Good question.... We REALLY want high culture. I am going to go with the libraries first and then we can go back to granaries.

Actually Adedincum gets a harbor first. We have a maximum of 2 squares that are 2 food without one.
Lindum doesn't have a temple so I switch it to one.
I consider switching Alesia to a Library, but decide not to. We can try the wonder gambit. If we fail, since this is version 1.15, the Forbidden Palace no longer gives two cores so we can fall back to the FP even though it is close to the capitol

Lugdunum, Camulodunum, Richborough, Verulamium, Gergovia are all on Libraries now.

IBT:
Burdigala: Temple->Library (for now at least).
Lapurdum: Temple->Worker
Great Lighthouse is completed by the Portuguese.

730 BC: Not many units to move other than workers.

IBT:
Entremont: Settler->Settler
Augustodurum: Spearman->Spearman

710 BC: Lower lux and decide to raise science to Max to get COL in 5.

IBT: Uh-oh. The volcano next to Verulamium is active. I think a town is safe 2 away and you don't want to settle next to it. Well we will see. It may very well miss.

690 BC: Adjust some spears

IBT: A chinese archer is heading our way. Not sure of his intent. Not much we can do about it if his intent is wrong-thinking.
Yow! the volcano pollutes 1/2 the squares surrounding it but misses the town.

670 BC: Some Spear moved S a bit, "Just in Case".

IBT: A Russian settler appears. I think I see a spot he may settle. I switch Richburrough to a settler to try to grab it.
The Chinese archer seems innocent, but I don't plan to have any cities left vulnerable.

650 BC: Shift some troops to try to keep russia from getting through.

IBT: Make that 2 russian settlers
Entremont: Settler->Settler

630 BC Send off settler to a northernish spot. due to strong Russian threat.

IBT:
Camoludium: Library->Spear

610 BC: More Russian blocking.

IBT: We learn Code of Laws and start Republic.

590 BC: Build the Nemausus. Lower science a bit so we have less of a deficit. Republic is a long haul

IBT: We are confusing the Russian settlers
Lugdunum: Library->Harbor
Richborough: Settler->Spear

570 BC: Build Curovernum. Rush a temple in Lindum

IBT:
Entremont: Settler->Settler
Eboracum: Worker->Courthouse
Cataractonium: Worker->Worker
Lindum: Temple->Worker

550 BC: Decide to sell Code of Laws as China has it. I take their cash and raise science to max to get Republic as fast as possible. I also get a worker.

Notes:

I stole Agedincum's spear so the one Camulodunum is producing should replace it. I kept up settler production from Entremont. There are still nice settle spots.

Science is at max. I would continue to run it very high. If we get it faster, we can revolt faster. We also may be able to get any techs the AI's research by trading.

I continued the strong culture push.

Some Pictures and the save.

>> The Save <<

 

[AndrewN]

Ah, what a lovely power graph.

Originally posted by Kaiser_Berger
Ahh yes, it is a beautiful thing

I'm not quite sure....Sistines would get us the religious half, but I have no idea off the top of my head what wonders now have the agricultural tag. Something we should definitely look into.

EDIT: I just took a minute and looked, and our best bet is probably a combo of the Hanging Garden and Sistine. If we could somehow get the Pyramids, that would do it for us in one shot. The HG should be the highest priority, because if we miss it we'll end up waiting until Universal Suffrage for another agricultural wonder. On the other hand, if we miss Sistine for some reason, we can still pick up Bach's for the religious half.

The HG and Sistine's would be nice. It will also get us into our golden age at just about the best time.

Corrado: Its not mentioned in the rules, but should we build our UU at all? It will make life a bit harder, but it is an offensive unit when we are playing a defensive game.

 

[Corrado]

* I am really liking that culture graph.

* As far as our UU- I have nothing against building our UU; having offensive units on hand to take out invading enemy stacks does not go against the rules I set up. (I may set up a successor game which is even more strict- no offensive units, no entry into enemy territory without RoP, no settling in eventual-enemy territory, etc.- but for now, we're okay.)

* Regarding the Hanging Gardens- how much do we really want to push for that? Yes, it's half of our GA, but it's also going to be a pain to get to. There are 8 other civs out there, and if one of them just build the Lighthouse, then they're at par or ahead of us research-wise. Monarchy is a useless and expensive tech to us except for the HG.

IMO- let's not bother to research Monarchy. If it looks like we'll get the GL, we'll set another city up for a Wonder, and we'll wait and see. If Monarchy falls into our lap through the GL or a good trade, then we'll build it. Otherwise, we'll pre-build Sistine or the FP.

* If FP doesn't act as a second core, what does it do now? I'm still kind of befuddled by "rank corruption" and "OCN corruption". Distance corruption I understand.


a space oddity, you're up!

 

[a space oddity]

I see it. I can't play any earlier than tomorrow CET though.

 

[Greebley]

As far as I can tell from experience, it has 2 benefits:

1) The FP increases the Optimal City Number (OCN). This makes the core around your palace more powerful - rather than giving you a second core.
2) The FP city itself has much reduced corruption. For this reason it can be nice to place the FP in a city that would be strong if it wasn't so corrupt. (The best city NOT close to the capitol).

1 is by far the more potent effect as it effects more than a single city. It very well may be better to get an early FP rather than a well placed one as it improves our entire empire. For this reason Alesia is not a bad choice. I think I prefer getting a wonder, but if we have to fall back to the FP it is still a good thing.

-----
The FP might have an effect beyond what I am saying - I haven't seen how it affects the distance to capitol calculation. I think the OCN part is bigger than the distance part. I know I have had an FP that was at a distance from the palace that had corrupt cities around it.

Maybe someone else has a more "official' answer, but this is what I have observed.

 

[Corrado]

Well, that makes it a very interesting question, then.

I'm not sure how much the Great Library actually helps us. We only know 3 cultures (Babylon, Russia, and China). Given our explorations so far and that there are only 2 luxury types on our continent, I'm inclined to believe that those 3 are the only people we'll know for a long time.

We're already ahead of all of them, and once we hit Republic and build all of those libraries, we're just going to explode past them. Are they going to research any path quickly enough that any two of them will have a tech we don't, and which we don't feel like trading for? Heck, I'm not even sure China has *met* the Russians, which means that China is isolated and Babylon and Russia only know each other, so we can't expect one side to research something and then pass it around.

I can see the GL helping us in 2 situations: either when the 3 civs we know go up the Poly/Monarch path while we go Math/Construction; or when Russia and Babylon hit Medeval and get their free tech... but again, given that we'll be a big Republic with lots of libraries very soon, we could easily have researched it all ourselves by the time they get around to it.

Of course, I don't know what else we can do with it. HG is out of the question- we'll barely be finished researching Republic by the time the GL is finished, and I don't think we'll run into people who have Monarchy to trade by then. The Pyramids would be Agricultural and save us upkeep and production, but someone else is likely to get them first, as every computer civ starts on the Pyramids real early. And we don't know Mysticism, so no Oracle to make our cheap Temples even nicer.

I think we should switch the GL to the Pyramids, as the Pyramids are much more useful to us. If we lose out on the race, we can always switch back to the GL.


Quick question on two cities- how do we feel about relocating Eboracum and Tolosi? If we move Eboracum one west then we give more squares for Burdigala to use, and pick up two fish for food so that we can mine the heck out of the hills. Likewise, if me move Tolosa 1 NW then it can also access the iron (fishing for Ironworks given the Jungle around it) but it also leaves more room for a city on the SW corner of the shore (one SW of the mountain).

I'm not trying to people over their placement; when we're rushing for space and don't have the units to explore, we settle what looks good at the time. But now that we have time, and can better survey the land, what do people think about moving stuff around before we build too much?

 

[andvruss]

I think we should move Eboracum either 1 tile West or 1 tile NW.

 

[Greebley]

Eboracum I agree with.

Tolosi I would have to really look at the save, but my guess is I don't feel we need to move it. Georgovia already has the iron in its radius, so that is not a concern. Also I was thinking we could plop a city in the middle of the jungle that is W of the iron.

We probably should make a new dot map. The North is pretty much settled but the south still has a lot of spots it would like to grab if we can. The dot map would help decide if we want to move any cities though we of course want to avoid it where possible. It is likely to be possible to place cities in good spots around existing cities.

I completely agree on the pyramids. I considered it set to "building a wonder" rather than "building the great Library" and didn't change it. You are right though, that it is better set the build to the wonder we most want, else we may get the wrong one. I think the GLib the most likely on what we will end up with, BTW - or Forbidden Palace. Hanging gardens is unlikely, but not impossible; we may be able to trade the AI for the techs. If the wonder cascade ends and Monarchy is not yet known, consider starting a prebuild for the Hanging Gardens.

My thought was we still want to concentrate on settling as land is the one thing we will be unable to get other than through chance. IMO, we have sufficient to win with good play at this point, but more makes it easier - if for no other reason than keeping it from the AI.

Also I would have at least 2 spear and a gallic sword in all border towns with other civs when we can. Being in the lead tends to make the AI a lot more aggressive.

 

[a space oddity]

Yep, agree on trying to claim as much land as we can now, and reshuffle later. And agree on defensive strength, as soon as the land runs out the AI will turn nasty.

 

[AndrewN]

With regard to the wonders the switch to the pyramids seems a good idea. I agree TGL is not much use at the moment and the pyramids will launch us straight into the golden age which is good for us (all those loverly libraries and marketplaces )

Regarding the city movements, I have no great objections, but if they have been built a while they might have improvements that would take a long time to replace.

 

[Corrado]

Exactly- we're going to really have to start balancing our expansion with putting defensive units in our cities. I'm not sure about a GS in *each* city- that's a lot of units that don't amount to much in the gunpowder age and beyond. But we need to start cranking out defensive units so that Catherine doesn't get any really bad ideas about what she can get away with.

 

[Kaiser_Berger]

The Pyramids sounds like a good idea. Depending on when/if we get them in relation to discovery of Republic, we may end up with a bit of despotic GA. But, even if that is the case, our 1-turn anarchy would make a revolution in our GA very doable.

 

[andvruss]

Originally posted by Kaiser_Berger
But, even if that is the case, our 1-turn anarchy would make a revolution in our GA very doable.

Probably 2.

 

[Greebley]

To clarify, I was advocating a GS in every border city, not every city. I agree that every city is too much.

I usually define a border city as one that the AI could get to within 2-3 turns from our borders. Later when we have rails a border city becomes any city the AI can reach in a single turn since we can defend so fast.

Coastal cities I usually try to have a force that can handle 2-3 troops suddenly landing.

I don't think we need all this right away. Just something to work towards as we play.

 

[Corrado]

Okay, here's a new dot map. It doesn't really cover our interior area, but I figure that that's the lowest priority.

Red, I consider top priority. There's Ivory down there! Luxury #3! Texas T... okay, maybe not.

Green is the next priority, IMO- remember that as an Agricultural society, irrigated desert is the same as irrigated plains for us, and that's the closest source of irrigation for our Ivory Coast cities.

Blue is then just filler, to close up the gaps.

 

[Kaiser_Berger]

I like the looks of the dot map. I agree that we must get settlers down to the red spots ASAP. The ivory will be a great addition to our collection of luxuries.

 

[Greebley]

The locations look pretty good to me.

Agreed that getting a third Lux would be highest priority, if we can get there first.

I think I would make the blue dot between Ratae and Caractorium should be red as well. The reason is that I want our route to the Luxes assured. Otherwise china declares war and we lose 1 or 2 lux.

I would also put a dot in that big patch of jungle. It is terrible now, but it will be good. Russia will also settle there if there is any resources (rubber) if we don't get it first. Finally it makes our border smaller which is always nice.

[Edit: One thing I was wondering while playing. Can we tell other civs to get out of our lands? This might lead to war. My thought was that we should not ask the AI to leave unless we feel the chances that he is going to attack is high. The thought came up when condsidering the russian settlers - I decided a pacifistic state would not order these settlers to leave.