COR1: The un-Militaristic Celts.

Space, I think the Unfilled light green circle is a nice spot too as it will grab the cow - maybe as the 3rd or 4th town? We also do not know what other land is up there. I do agree with your ordering - N is definitely superior to S in terms of immediate growth.
 
I agree, that can be a good spot too, but we probably have the time (at least until MM is around) to fill that spot. But we definitely need to scout to see whether it's a land bridge. Or maybe the water is even a lake (I don't have the save yet).
 
Originally posted by barron of ideas
delurk

Kaiserburger, are you sure you don't want roads on those mined tiles? There are articles in the war accademy that talk about this, how many worker turns you burn to get back to those tiles when you do finally decide you can't live without the extra commerce the roads bring. If you mined it, you planned to put a citizen on it to work, why give up the commerce for the road and the additional mobility.

It's not my game, but it is really a surprise to see an unroaded mined tile.

re-lurk
Click to expand...


Indeed, I can't recall a time when I've not roaded a tile right away before. Most other times I certainly would have roaded right away. The situation though made me think that getting the necessary shields for the settler pump outweighted the lost worker turns/commerce. Like Greebley said, it was a tough call, but I thought the benefits outweighed the costs, at least in my eyes.
 
I agree with moving north rather than south. We want to stay next to rivers for the food and for the free commerce.

Besides- if we ignore the south, what's the worst that happens? Other people settle untenable land. Given what we expect our culture to be, I have no real problem with a few straggling slow-growth towns being stuck near our capital to be assimilated. :borg:
 
First of all: the save

pre-turn
Talk about extreme farmer gambit, :coool:

IT
Zzz

2110BC - turn 1
Move settler on the hill, scout SE, MM Entremont.
Adjust the slider, notice that Alohabet is in 10 no matter what, we're gonna make some money. :D

IT
Zzz

2070BC - turn 2
Alesia's borders expand, there's a fish on the spot we discussed, might be worth it.
Found Camulodunum, start warrior.
Move worker to connect.

IT
Entremont settler -> settler
Lugdunum warrior -> temple

2030BC - turn 3
worker starts road, scout SW.
Settler moving north, MM entremont.

IT
Alesia Warrior -> Worker

1990BC - turn 4
New warrior goes scouting north.
Southern scout S, discovers Spices.

IT
Zzzz

1950BC - turn 5
Northern scout spots pollution, a vulcano must have erupted.
MM Entremont and move up the slider.

IT
Entremont settler -> settler
Alesia worker -> Rax


1910BC - turn 6
There is some Tabacco in the North. I'll move the yellow spot so that it'll be on the river and when expands cathes the tabacco.

IT
Camulodunum Warrior -> Worker

1870BC - turn 7
MM Entremont, take care of the slider

IT
Zzzz

1830BC - turn 8
1st settler is on the spot.
Southern warrior finds a hut.

IT
We meet China. That was a weird experience, first I thought it was one of ours, so little colour difference.
He has BW, Masonry and The Wheel. We'll trade later (Alphabet in 2).

1790BC - turn 9
We spot brown borders to the North.
The soutern hut is far enough away, closer to China probaly, so I risk it. Barbs sprout from it.

IT
One Barb attacks and is killed injuring our warrior (2/3), the others forty.

1750BC - turn 10
Our scout runs.
More yummy land in the north including dyes.
We've already outscored China!

Our current lands:
Cor1_1750BC.JPG
 
delurk/

The Kaiser_Berger has a very good point, the scarce resource in this and every game at this point is towns. If omitting roads gives you towns sooner, even one turn can be vital. The race to expand to the best sites is unforgiving. Burn all the worker turns and almost anything else (run scouts up to barbarian sites to get huts) to get more towns quicker where you want them.

But...with roads, the settlers, which are not the final thing you want, just an intermediate good to give you the towns you need, can turn into towns where you want them faster. A setter one turn sooner is good. If it can use roads to get where it is going to turn into a town. I think you had a road leading toward where you wanted to go, so this wasn't an issue this time. But eventually, once the core and the strategic sites are built, and you are filling in the gaps, workers and their time to improve the tiles being worked matter, a lot. And the roads are a military necessity, if you cant get your reaction force where you need it, you need a lot of garrison eating your commerce, which you have less of if you aren't working roaded tiles.

No reaction force and no or very little garrison make for nervous times and a lot of giving in to demands. You can't have everything, but what can't wait, shouldn't wait.

What can wait, should wait. This time roads on the mined tiles could wait. But not always, and maybe not next time, depending on the number of Workers and their industriousness. Ideally you would have one or two workers for each city, to add improvements to tiles just as the city grows and needs to work the new tile, and other gangs to build roads between cities and toward resources and luxuries to claim them, and the military highways for defense and sometimes, offense.

There is a good reason to sometimes group workers, and sometimes not to. It repays study. Remember if you group 4 workers and could do the job with 3, you burned the worker turn it took to get to the tile (times 4) and the turn to leave. Everything goes better when you can do things faster than the enemy. It's true for building settlers, and turning them into towns where you want them, and it is true for all the improvements you want your workers to build. See Crackers discussion in the War Academy for what the AI does, and laugh at them, but if you don't do better, you will get the same poor results they do.

Sorry to thread jack, glad there was a good reason I didn't see the first time.

relurk.

On the
 
Pre-turn: fixed Alesia to produce a Settler rather than a Barracks. MM Alesia to produce Settler in 6 and hit 3 in 6.

1725 BC (1): Discover Alphabet. Entremont Settler -> Settler.

New Settler heads straight north to settle at the new river with a cow on it. Another Settler moves just north of the light green dot- the l.g. dot encroaches too much on our existing cities, and that puts us closer to the brown territory.

Warriors move- pop a hut, get barbarians. Meet Russia, who is down Alphabet but up Bronze Working, Masonry, The Wheel, and Mysticism.

Trade Alphabet to China for Masonry and Bronze Working. Trade Alphabet and 85 gold to Russia for Iron Working and The Wheel. Because, after all, we need those military techs. :lol:

A quick look reveals Iron relatively close, but no Horses.

IBT: Barbarian attacks a warrior, loses but does 2 HP damage.

1700 BC (2): Camulodunum Worker -> Curragh.

Found Verulamium; it stars on a Worker.

IBT: Russian Settler/Warrior pair moves towards the northern river. Bastards!

1675 BC (3): Lugdunum Temple -> Spearmen.

1650 BC (4): Richborough Warrior -> Worker.
Pop a hut for useless maps. Begin to use settlers to carve a path through Jungle to a great city cite with Iron and 3 Fruit tiles in its radius.

1625 BC (5): Find Chinese borders. Waaaay south of us.

IBT: Barb takes the bait and attacks our warrior, doing 1 HP of damage before dying. Said Warrior becomes a Veteran, a rare breed for our peaceful civ.

1600 BC (6): Entremont Settler -> Settler. Alesia Settler -> Settler.

Russians found "Yekaterinburg" right where I wanted a Celt city.

1575 BC (7): Pop a hut for more barbarians. Nuts.

1550 BC (8): Lugdunum Spearman -> Spearman.

Found Gergovia in the middle of the jungle. It starts on a worker to help it dig out.

Found Augustadorum to encroach a bit on Russian lands. It starts on a Warrior for defense.

1525 BC(9): Richboroguh Worker -> Curragh.

Discover Babylon beyond Russian lands. They have Mysticism, but not Alphabet or the Wheel. Trade The Wheel for Mysticism.

IBT: Richborough hit by barbarians. We lose 8 gold.

1500 BC (10): Entremont Settler -> Settler. Camuldonoum Curragh -> Temple.

Found Agedincum. Begin working on a Warrior to keep the peace.

Notice horses somewhat south of Entremont; but send new Settler north anyway to help hem in those dangerous Russians.

Okay, that's my ten.

AndrewN, it's yours to keep expanding!
 
Here's a map of our current empire.

Cor1_1500.jpg
 
I've got it. Ill play tonight.

Nice growth guys :)

I notice that Augustodurum is building a warrior. Can't we build a nice shiny new temple instead and put some cultural pressure on Yekaterinburg

The problem with settler factories is they quickly outpace dot maps so I had another go. It's either that or work :(

Cor1_1500-1.jpg


The blue spots are normal city sites, the green are to put pressure on Russia and the red are fishing villages
 
I had Augustadorum build a Warrior first in order to keep the peace, but if our lux rate can keep it happy long enough- or the spearman gets there quickly- a Temple would be just fine.

All of those spots look just fine to me. A few thoughts-

* We have two major thrusts, here, and we need to decide how to proceed. To the south, at the bottom edge of the two maps, are Spices. Given our peaceful desires, we'll probably want to go to Republic and then Democracy, in which case Luxes will be vital. However, this is our best chance to hem in Russia, which tends to be warlike in every game I play, so crippling them by bounding them in might be a good idea.

* I'd manuever the blue dots in the jungle southwest through southeast of Gergovia to get the iron in their range... fishing for Iron Works, as coal shows up in Jungle occasionally.

* Check to see if the water north of Agedenicum is fresh or ocean- if it is ocean, we may want to settle 2 squares NE of Agedenicum for the canal.
 
Originally posted by Corrado
I had Augustadorum build a Warrior first in order to keep the peace, but if our lux rate can keep it happy long enough- or the spearman gets there quickly- a Temple would be just fine.
Click to expand...

I feel that the varient we are playing we should not be building offensive units. The spearmen line is OK as defensive, but warriors can be upgraded to swords etc.

All of those spots look just fine to me. A few thoughts-

* We have two major thrusts, here, and we need to decide how to proceed. To the south, at the bottom edge of the two maps, are Spices. Given our peaceful desires, we'll probably want to go to Republic and then Democracy, in which case Luxes will be vital. However, this is our best chance to hem in Russia, which tends to be warlike in every game I play, so crippling them by bounding them in might be a good idea.
Click to expand...

Basically we an unusual problem. Lots of space :) . I was thinking the nothern blue and green spots, followed by the other greens and then the south. The fishing villages can be filled in later, or converting foreign cities if they get settled first.

* I'd manuever the blue dots in the jungle southwest through southeast of Gergovia to get the iron in their range... fishing for Iron Works, as coal shows up in Jungle occasionally.
Click to expand...

I didn't know the iron was there, the picture is not that good and I can't open the save at work. But that site will not be built on my turn.

* Check to see if the water north of Agedenicum is fresh or ocean- if it is ocean, we may want to settle 2 squares NE of Agedenicum for the canal.
Click to expand...

I thoutgh of that square, but not for that reason :crazyeye: . In the end I thought it was too close to Agedincum, but you may both be correct
 
Agedincum is never going to be much of a city on its own- there are no squares in its radius to offer more than 2 food, which means it will only access 1 or 2 of the massive hills around it. A city close by that has food bonuses (the fish) will be able to use that same land, then.

But double-check that it's actually saltwater (1 food) in that mass of water... given the Russian layout, I wouldn't be surprised if that's just a huge lake.
 
Andrew,

I would also make sure all towns have temples. We are going to want high culture in this variant. I would even make it the very first thing every new town builds. For example, Verulamium could be switched to a temple. When it grows to size 2 the temple is in 20 so we just pop rush it.
 
Originally posted by Greebley
Andrew,

I would also make sure all towns have temples. We are going to want high culture in this variant. I would even make it the very first thing every new town builds. For example, Verulamium could be switched to a temple. When it grows to size 2 the temple is in 20 so we just pop rush it.
Click to expand...

Way ahead of you :). I'll post the results in han hour or two
 
Inheretied turn.

The water discussed is fresh so there is no point in building a canal city in the choke. However there is a plains cattle that can be reached if we settle the other forest.

As Greebly said and I had already worked out, in towns that get 1 shield, when the population increases we can then pop rush the cheep temples. I swap Richborough, Augustodurum, Verulamium, Gergovia and Agedincum to temples.

Lux tax was a bit high so I set it to 10%. It will need to go up next turn when Entremont grows.

We have 9 cities and only 15 units, 1 settler, 6 workers, 6 warriors, 1 spearman and a curragh.

Diplo check:
China(cautious) - level tech, no money, 6 cities and horses
Russia(cautious) - up HBR, 85g, 6 cities and spices (1 extra)
Babylon(annoyed) - Down alpahbet, 20g, 5 cities and spices (2 extra)

There are also Chinese warriors next to Gergovia.

IBT
The chinese pull back.

1) 1475BC
Workers work, warriors explore.


IBT
Another russian settler spotted, currently behind Yarosavl' but coming our way.

Lugdunum Spearman -> Spearman

The russians start the Pyramids.

2) 1450BC
Some of the workers finish their jobs so I start to join them into groups of three.
Goody hut spotted

No new techs, but Russia have a new town.
I spot a worker clearing jungle on its own down near Gergoiva. Not very efficient so I stop that and move him somewhere useful.
Pop-rush temple in Verulamium


IBT
Alesia Spearman -> Spearman

Verulamium Temple -> worker

3) 1425BC
Pop-rush Temple in Camulodunum
Pop hut and get barbs :(

IBT
Entremont settler -> settler
Camuldounum temple -> Spearman

4) 1400BC
Attack and kill one of the barbs for no damage. More iron spotted.

IBT
The barbs attach us and we promote to elite :)
The Russians start the Colossus

5) 1375BC
Annoying. One of the sites I marked as a fishing village turns out to be fish :D. We could build a fishing village on the hills nearby and also get the cow that is currently out of range of all our cities.
Babylon get alphabet. We are level on tech with everybody except Russia who are up HBR

IBT
Lugdunum Spearman -> Spearman

6) 1350BC
Zzzz.

7) 1325BC
Pop-rush temple in Richborough

IBT
Entremont settler -> settler
Alesia Spearman -> spearman
Richborough temple -> worker

8) 1300BC
Pop-rush temple in Gergovia
Pop-rush temple in Augustodurum

IBT
Gergovia temple -> worker
Augustodurum temple -> worker

9) 1275BC
Zzzz.

IBT
Lugdunum Spearman -> spearman
Chinese start the Pyramids

10) 1250BC
Eboracum founded, set to temple :)
Hut spotted, for the next person :D
Pop-rush temple in Agedincum



Notes to next player:
In all new towns grow to size two and pop-rush the temple.

There is a goody hut near China on mountains that might have something nice inside.

Keep MMing Entremont. I think we need another mine because the AI dosen't always put the worker on the forest when it grows.

Keep the workers in stacks of three, roads finish in 1, mines in 2 that way.

Settler in north to settle on or near the dyes. Settler in south to settle between iron and fruit. Either in the jungle or on the hills.

Currently our culture is more than twice the next best (that we know about):goodjob:

Save...

Edit: sorry, my bad. andvruss, your up next
 
For the southern settler, it may be better to grab the horses and then send the next one for those spices.

Though we are peaceful, the fast move of the horse can help in defending the homeland.

Also as many lux as we can get the better. Even if the town is surrounded by the AI, it will be flip resistant if we keep our culture high and we will be able to use the roads through the AI territory for at least most of the game, and therefore still worth while. Might need several defenders though - just in case.

[Edit:

Cor,
If we follow the strict letter of rules, we will not be able to explore while at war. The problem is that all units must be in our territory. An exploring boat would have to be disbanded. This seems extreme. Maybe we should reword it to "we cannot enter enemy territory and cannot initiate an attack in neutral territory (only defend)? What do you think?

-------------------

Also, I thought I would get clarification on the "must leave if asked". The AI pretty much will always ask you on the first turn to leave. Do we then have to leave next turn? Or do you mean when the AI asks the second time and moves your units automatically, you never declare war?

The first is more strict and limits exploration by boat. This is the way I interpret the rule however. Basically you need an ROP to go anywhere.

The second allows exploration of other civs lands without an ROP and doesn't lead to war as far as I know. If I read your initial statement correctly we cannot do this.

A third option that could be used is simply "Don't purposefully enter another civs lands without an ROP. This would be the more harsh version of the "enter land" rule.
 
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