Corporate Maintenance Explained

A slight divergence:

Is the rate of inflation increase affected by the presence or absence of corporations?

In other words, if you do not found any corporations nor possess any corporate branches, will you still end up with the 200%+ inflation by the year 2000AD?

Correct. It's always been there. It's not had such a high profile before, however, as it was formerly applied to much smaller numbers. 200% of a few hundred (from city maintenance, civic upkeep and unit maintenance) is not a big deal. Add in horrendous corporation costs and suddenly people start to notice it.
 
Great article OTAKUjbski, thanks! I'm a lot more hopeful about Corporations now.

OTAKUjbski said:
There are five factors which determine a Corporate Office's Fees. These only take affect if a Corporation is consuming one or more resources in the city. (I.e, a Corporate Office without access to the appropriate resources generates no fees but still provides +5 to its Corporate Headquarters):
That gives me a sneaky idea. What if you were to found junk cities solely for the purpose of "farming" them using corporations? Found cities which you wouldn't normally, one tile or more from the coast, and don't connect them to your trade routes - which means they won't have any of the resources, and won't incur maintenance penalties! (If the above information is correct) If you found or capture the Corporate Offices of, say, three corporations (Which is a lot, but hear me out) you could get +15 gold per junk city that you founded for corporation farming, which would more pay for the cities maintenance, especially when multiplied. (Markets+Grocers+Banks=+100%, so you could really get 30 gold per turn per junk city.) If you found a corporation in your Wall Street city, you would get 20 GPT for each city you have the corporation in.

The downside is that not only is the AI unlikely to ever use a strategy like that, it's also unrealistic. American doesn't build tiny villages in inaccessible places so they can open branches of corporations there and make money, somehow, because no goods can be delivered there. It seems like the Corporate Offices should only get the 5 gold if the city is actually using the corporation. That would render my above idea useless, but for the sake of realism it might be a good one.
 
OTAKUjbski, did you actually ever play a game at emperor level (monarch is probably almost the same) and mess around with corporations? I did, and I learned the "benefits" the hard way.

Currently some good strategy dealing with corporations are:

- Spread them to your neighbours, possibly to the ones you want to cripple
- If your neighbour spreads some offices in your big cities, destroy your overflow resources or trade them away
- Switch to state property, to negate the effects

Ok ok, of course this is not broken or buggy. I understand, this is fully intentional and the way it's ment to be played :-)

No Emperor here. Prince/Monarch only, though none of my Monarch games have made it too far into the Industrial age, so I admitedly have yet to see a Monarch Corporation.

Prince Corporations, on the other hand, have been pretty abundant, and I have yet to tuck my tail and destroy or trade away my own improvements.

I only changed the civic and the difficulty level in your example and got a 120 upkeep for your two corporations in a single city. I really didn't do anything extreme or go for a worst case scenario. I could have increased the inflation rate to 250% (already observed by players at noble level near the end of the game, at deity level it is higher), I could have removed the corporate headquarters from your civilization, I could have increased the number of resources in the city to increase the cost, I could have changed the corporations to culture producing ones (usually culture is valued less by players), I could have increased the size of the city to increase the upkeep. No, I only changed one civic and the difficulty level. It's not a worst case scenario.
I deliberately didn't go for a worst case scenario, because that wouldn't have had any value as an example.

Not that it really matters at this point, since debating the plausibilty of this system is moot, but ...

... increasing difficulty from Noble to Deity (a 50% increase) and from the "Pro-Corporation" Civic to the "anti-Corporation" Civic (another 50% increase) is a pretty sizeable change.

It also doesn't make much sense. Deity-level players are nigh to gods of CivIV and are an extremely rare breed.

So why would a a Deity-level player switch to the worst possible Civic given his incorporations?

And why wouldn't a Deity-level player plan ahead enough to be able to build either of the Corporate HQs next to Wall Street? It can only mean the competing Corporations' HQs are in his Wall Street -- in which case I have to wonder why this back-breaking city isn't running the Corporations he does have Wall Street HQs for.

And why would a Deity-level player hurt himself even more by not spreading his corporations abroad? (That's almost like saying a Deity-level player would found a religion, build the shrine and then never spread it to a single city ... which just doesn't even sound right.!?)


Not everything works in the microcosm of one city -- nor should it. If it did, then we would never build fishing villages that struggle to get over Pop 6. We also wouldn't specialize any of our cities, because each microcosm of a city would appear out of balance and unable to adequately support itself.

I feel that taking the global element out of Corporations and restricting their strategic founding & spreading is like intentionally breaking its leg just so we can point out its inability to stand.

I feel like by this same logic, we could argue Espionage is broke because if the Espionage slider is at 0% the whole game, the AI has carte blanche access to all of our cities and territory to sabotage whatever he wants.


By removing the strengths or weaknesses of a system, it's very easy to weight it in any given direction.

If we're going to point out the obvious weaknesses, then we also need to take into consideration the obvious strengths if it's to be a fair comparison of the validity of the system.

Again, I'm not saying this system is correct (in fact, the more I listen to the respectable members of this forum, the more I am inclined to begin believing I am simply too naive for accepting the game as it came to me and trying to make it work right out of the box).


BTW, I value the :culture: Corporations the most. :D
 
Not that it really matters at this point, since debating the plausibilty of this system is moot, but ...

... increasing difficulty from Noble to Deity (a 50% increase) and from the "Pro-Corporation" Civic to the "anti-Corporation" Civic (another 50% increase) is a pretty sizeable change.

Yes, but deity and environmentalism are equally fair conditions than noble and free market. The system should work on deity. Corporations shouldn't be useless on that level. And environmentalism can be forced upon you by the UN. That's why I chose it.

It also doesn't make much sense. Deity-level players are nigh to gods of CivIV and are an extremely rare breed.

They're not that rare. I've played every version of civ on deity, although I guess civ4 is the hardest one to do it with. I usually play immortal though.

So why would a a Deity-level player switch to the worst possible Civic given his incorporations?

Forced by the UN as I said in the post where I gave the example. (You can defy them, but that results in unhappiness.)

And why wouldn't a Deity-level player plan ahead enough to be able to build either of the Corporate HQs next to Wall Street? It can only mean the competing Corporations' HQs are in his Wall Street -- in which case I have to wonder why this back-breaking city isn't running the Corporations he does have Wall Street HQs for.

The Wall Street wonder would reduce costs from 130 to 120, not really important. I gave the numbers with and without Wall Street in that post, both are quite awful.

And why would a Deity-level player hurt himself even more by not spreading his corporations abroad? (That's almost like saying a Deity-level player would found a religion, build the shrine and then never spread it to a single city ... which just doesn't even sound right.!?)

Of course, a deity level player will spread the corporation around. However, that doesn't change the fact that for each corporation branch that you place in your own cities, you pay 130 (or 120 with Wall Street) gold. So while it is interesting to place the corporation in foreign cities, the cost-gain relation in your own cities (130 gold for 5.25 food and 9 hammers) is not worth it.

Spreading in another nation and spreading in your own cities are independent acts. You can do the one and not the other and one of them is useful and the other will hurt you. [/QUOTE]
 
By removing the strengths or weaknesses of a system, it's very easy to weight it in any given direction.

If we're going to point out the obvious weaknesses, then we also need to take into consideration the obvious strengths if it's to be a fair comparison of the validity of the system.

Again, I'm not saying this system is correct (in fact, the more I listen to the respectable members of this forum, the more I am inclined to begin believing I am simply too naive for accepting the game as it came to me and trying to make it work right out of the box).


BTW, I value the :culture: Corporations the most. :D

The obvious weaknesses are ones that isn't fully realized yet because we are still finding them. you've dont a great job of showing the benefits but most of the additional benefits are just multiplicative of what we already know. if you want to keep up the strength of corporations you have to simply multiply what you are doing: more foreign corp spam, more tundra cities, more this, more that.

as i showed a simple espionage act of destroying a courthouse can take your costs for a corporation anywhere above a 1.00 multiplier for costs. suddenly instead of running -10.07 you're running -50.00+.
 
*nod* -- mixing "your own cities" with "other people's cities" is a smokescreen.

In reality, you can spread your corperations to "other people's cities" without putting it in your own cities.

The two are independent.

The question is: should you add a corperation to one of your own cities.

To figure that out, we need to work out the state of the corp. HQ (is it yours? is it in a wall street city?), the benefit we get from the corp, and the costs the corp. branch causes (per-turn and startup).

And it appears as if the benefits are quite often negative.

Commerce to Commerce conversion is an easy way to figure out if it is worthwhile. What is the efficiency of turning gold via a corp. to gold? What is the efficiency of turning gold via a corp. into other commerce?

Using specialists keeps the problem simple: all you need for specialists is caste system or enough buildings to run them. If we use tiles, we need to talk about both what was lost and what was gained.

(ie, 5 population working a plains town vs 5 population working grasslands town is +5 production -5 food. So that is a conversion of 1 food to 1 production, not 1 food to 6-8 commerce and 2 hammers.)
 
I can understand OTAKUjbski and DrLaban's concern about people jumping to conclusions regarding new game mechanics, but doesn't the strategy above above make corporations sound pretty broken to you? The surefire way to deal with corporate maintenance is to pillage your own resources until you don't have any left that corporation can use. To me, this feels very, very wrong. They were originally touted as a way to make duplicate resources useful, not as a way to make it prohibitively expensive to have resources.

Yes, I think the maintenance is too high and should be decreased
 
So it will Just balance out, if you put it back into Gold but you shouldn't do that... Corporations are NOT a way to get gold, they are a way to turn Gold into other things. (Culture, Hammers, Food, and Science to some degree)

This is the most important idea of the thread. From the calculations it seems that corporations can trade gold into these other things at a better ratio than everthing else in the game. However, with the exception of food (which can be turned into economic specialists if you have enough slots) you can't then turn these resources efficiently back into gold when you decide you need more gold.

This leads to 3 strategies with corporations:
1) Keep them out of your territory. Maybe found a few, but don't spread any branches to your own cities, just to other civilizations. You lose out on the multiplying power of the corporations, but you have a more flexible civilization.
2) Judiciously apply them to certain cities. Apply science to your oxford city, apply production to your military/wonder cities. Apply food + Production to cities that will never get big (the maintenance will never get as big because the maintenance is tied to population).
3) Apply them widely to your own cities but bounce around between Mercantilism, State Property, and Free Market depending on which resources you want to use and when. Great for spiritual civs, but beware that the UN environmental resolution can hurt you.

But the AI is clearly *not* making intelligent choices concerning corporations. It just spams them all over the place and sinks itself into oblivian (until it wises up enough to switch to a civic that effectively nullifies corporations(?)). You consider this 'fixed'? I certainly don't. I can see that very judicious use of the corporation, plus a bit of malignent use against the AI, can make corporations less of a burden toward the end game. By less of a burden, I'm considering the benefits as well. But do you really believe this was how this was the mechanic intended for the game?

Well, I don't know how it was intended, but I'm not sure that the above strategy is neccessarily 'unwise' on the AI's part, depending on what he's planning to do. You could certainly spread production corporation everywhere in order to build all the buildings you've wanted to catch up on, then switch to a civic where that corporation is 'off' for awhile. When you want to go to war later you can then turn to a civic where that corporation is 'on' to mass produce units over a handful of turns. Again, more useful for a spiritual civ. You could also do something post war with cultural corporations. Spread the corporation to your newly conquered cities, and use civics to keep that corporation 'on' until you've gotten the culture you want out of it.

If you have a domestic production corporation and a foreign culture corporation, you can go State Property (peacetime research)-> Mercantilism (Prewar/Early war unit production)-> Free Market (end of war culture growth + efficient production in new cities-> State Property (peacetime research)

You can also have leave the production corporations 'off' until you're ready to get into the space race. Again, spiritual civs can flip them on and off, say, when they want to put labs in every city.

That gives me a sneaky idea. What if you were to found junk cities solely for the purpose of "farming" them using corporations? Found cities which you wouldn't normally, one tile or more from the coast, and don't connect them to your trade routes - which means they won't have any of the resources, and won't incur maintenance penalties! (If the above information is correct) If you found or capture the Corporate Offices of, say, three corporations (Which is a lot, but hear me out) you could get +15 gold per junk city that you founded for corporation farming, which would more pay for the cities maintenance, especially when multiplied. (Markets+Grocers+Banks=+100%, so you could really get 30 gold per turn per junk city.) If you found a corporation in your Wall Street city, you would get 20 GPT for each city you have the corporation in.

Well, what about founding cities you intend to keep small and letting them hook up to resources? Like the 'tundra city' examples people have mentioned. Don't work any 'marginal' tile, as it will increase maintenance more than the benefits of working it. Instead put any excess population into specialists to keep your population down. Works better with representation.

Yes, but deity and environmentalism are equally fair conditions than noble and free market. The system should work on deity. Corporations shouldn't be useless on that level. And environmentalism can be forced upon you by the UN. That's why I chose it.

True, the system should 'work' on deity, but it should be harder!

The obvious weaknesses are ones that isn't fully realized yet because we are still finding them. you've dont a great job of showing the benefits but most of the additional benefits are just multiplicative of what we already know. if you want to keep up the strength of corporations you have to simply multiply what you are doing: more foreign corp spam, more tundra cities, more this, more that.

Actually, the 'obvious' weaknesses are the ones everyone finds in the first few days! It's the 'subtle' weaknesses and the 'subtle' strengths we haven't yet found!

I'm not ready to call the sytem 'perfect' or 'broken' yet. It certainly doesn't work like I thought it would, and I'm somewhat unhappy that it's cost/benefit ratio is so dependent on inflation, which I previously most ignored. But it may turn out to be a good addition to the game as is. As is, I won't argue that it will definitely take a deep understanding of the mechanics to use it well at higher levels.
 
judicious application is phony for one reason: you cant judiciously apply corps when you run free market and have the AI sending execs your way. sure that's a risk you run, but if for every 1 corp founded in your territory you need more than one corp overseas,EVEN IF YOU OWN THE CORP, can you imagine the amount of foreign corps needed to stay afloat with a foreign one? in a mature corp market where people are flipping in to SP or MC for protection, you have less open markets to expand in to.
 
Seems there are 3 possibilities:
1-The anti-inflationists are right; domestic corporations become a losing proposition as the game goes on, and this is an unintended effect of the inflation increase that Firaxis added to slow down late game teching.

2-domestic corporations ARE a losing proposition as the game goes on due to inflation, but this IS intended. Corporations are designed for either a stepping stone on the way to state property (Marx was right!), or occasionally useful if you need production or oil or aluminum and are commerce rich. (I don't buy the food/science/culture trade off if you then need to lower the slider to pay for it.) Corporations thus, either by design or an unintended side-effect, function better to slow your rivals then aid your cities.

3-There is some strategy that we haven't found yet that will make domestic corporations worthwhile even late into the game. Maybe poeple are wrong about inflation, though I've seen screen shots, or maybe at some magic amount of resources the gains will out weigh the costs. BUT, if this is the case, this strategy must be carefully adhered to. If it there were many ways to use corps. well, they would be more apparent.

(as was said, you must seperate the effects of domestic corps from foreign corp income, since if you were meant to pay for your own by spreading to other civs, you could profit even more by NOT having your own, and STILL spreading to other civs. Vital resource corporations excluded, of course!)
 
This whole thread is incredibly stupid from my point of view.

The first who *spends* a Great Person once you beeline for a particular technology gets this awesome bonus! You can found a corporation! The benefits of a corporation are that if you aren't careful, it'll make you broke. And if you ARE careful a few gold per turn and some additional resources.

Founding a corporation is supposed to be a benefit, not something where you sit and scratch your head and try to figure out if maybe it's helping you. You don't have to consult a two-page thread about whether it's a good thing to have the Pyramids. If I'm going to blow a Great Engineer, I want some results!

Even having a corporation in your city is supposed to be somewhat beneficial. Otherwise, why not spam your neighbors with corporations?

The issue about whether the AI can use corporations correctly is moot. If I can easily spread enough corporations to the AIs to completely cripple their economies AND I can make them switch their civics with spies so that they can't go State Property... Then it doesn't matter what they do, does it?
 
This whole thread is incredibly stupid from my point of view.

The first who *spends* a Great Person once you beeline for a particular technology gets this awesome bonus! You can found a corporation! The benefits of a corporation are that if you aren't careful, it'll make you broke. And if you ARE careful a few gold per turn and some additional resources.

Founding a corporation is supposed to be a benefit, not something where you sit and scratch your head and try to figure out if maybe it's helping you. You don't have to consult a two-page thread about whether it's a good thing to have the Pyramids. If I'm going to blow a Great Engineer, I want some results!

Even having a corporation in your city is supposed to be somewhat beneficial. Otherwise, why not spam your neighbors with corporations?

The issue about whether the AI can use corporations correctly is moot. If I can easily spread enough corporations to the AIs to completely cripple their economies AND I can make them switch their civics with spies so that they can't go State Property... Then it doesn't matter what they do, does it?

:goodjob: I like how the screen name lives up to the post and the post makes sense!
 
:goodjob: I like how the screen name lives up to the post and the post makes sense!

Yes, I agree! Corporations, like religions, should be largely BENEFICIAL! You should be encouraged to start them, spread them and use them as much as possible just as religions.
 
I dunno...I kind of like the idea of a feature that is best used carefully rather than wantonly...kind of like civics. You don't just blindly move up to the most recently enabled civic, you have to consider various ways in which such changes will affect your goals. Likewise, it's not always going to be good to use corps, and when you do, you have to use them in a specific way.

But...I'm still waiting to give it a shot myself, as Amazon has yet to deliver...
 
I dunno...I kind of like the idea of a feature that is best used carefully rather than wantonly...kind of like civics. You don't just blindly move up to the most recently enabled civic, you have to consider various ways in which such changes will affect your goals. Likewise, it's not always going to be good to use corps, and when you do, you have to use them in a specific way.

But...I'm still waiting to give it a shot myself, as Amazon has yet to deliver...

except for the fact that you can just blindly move to state property to avoid the quagmire of risk aversion and specific use.
 
except for the fact that you can just blindly move to state property to avoid the quagmire of decision making and specific use.

What if you lack oil, currently have standard ethanol in a production city, and are preparing for war?
 
I'm fine with the concept of having to place the corporation carefully. But I'm not okay with huge negative effects of unstrategic use of a corporation. Especially when those effects are hidden to the lay player.

My guess is that the best fix will simply be to take corporation out of the maintenance category entirely and give it a straight gold malus per resource. The problem with this solution is that city spam becomes the new strategy, unless the regular maintenance curve is harsh enough to take care of that.
 
*nod* -- mixing "your own cities" with "other people's cities" is a smokescreen.

In reality, you can spread your corporations to "other people's cities" without putting it in your own cities.

The two are independent.

No they're not. Suppose you really want that food, hammer, science or culture bonus, but you're upset by its cost. It's only logical to pay for it by spreading it to other civs' cities, isn't it? It's all part of the same strategy, and it would be utterly foolish to regard them as two separate things. Remember that the goal wasn't to make money, but get the bonuses corporations offer at an affordable price.
 
The problem with this solution is that city spam becomes the new strategy, unless the regular maintenance curve is harsh enough to take care of that.

Or if it is a gold malus per resource that increases each time you build a new office in a new city. The more cities that have it, the higher the maintenance.
 
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