If you want that food, hammer, science or culture bonus, you shouldn't have to found that Corporation. You should only need an office. In a balanced game, foreign corps should be affordable though a bit more pricey than a domestic corp. This is not currently the case. Everything is expensive.
Corporate Maintenance Explained
- Thread starter OTAKUjbski
- Start date
If you want that food, hammer, science or culture bonus, you shouldn't have to found that Corporation. You should only need an office. In a balanced game, foreign corps should be affordable though a bit more pricey than a domestic corp. This is not currently the case. Everything is expensive.
Corp cost, in terms of resources, is:
C(R) = EmpMultiplier * [5 and 13/18th + 17/18*R + P*5/18 + R*P/18]
EmpMultiplier is a misnomer -- it includes court houses, free trade, etc.
dC(R)/dR = EmpMultiplier* [17/18 + P/18]
dC(R)/dP = EmpMultiplier * [5/18 + R/18]
Let G(R) = R*K be the gain from converting a resource.
Marginally, adding more resources is useful so long as:
dC/dR <= K
ie
P <= 18*K/EmpMultiplier - 17
Not counting the money that the headquarters gets, spreading a corp. is worthwhile if:
C(R) <= G(R)
ie
5 and 13/18th + 17/18*R + P*5/18 + R*P/18
<=
K*R/EmpMultiplier
or:
5 and 13/18th + P*5/18
<=
R * [K/EmpMultiplier-17/18-P/18]
So for a Corperation to have a hope to be viable, K/EmpMultiplier-17/18-P/18 must be positive.
Then the threshold at which the coperation becomes a good thing is:
R => [103/18 + 5P/18]/[K/EM-17/18-P/18]
With population 10 and an total EM of 2, and each converted resource worth about 6 $, this works out to:
R => [153/18]/[K/2-1.5]
R => 8.5/[3-1.5]
R => 5.667...
R => 6
you need 6 resources for the corp. to break even.
Hmm.
C(R) = EmpMultiplier * [5 and 13/18th + 17/18*R + P*5/18 + R*P/18]
EmpMultiplier is a misnomer -- it includes court houses, free trade, etc.
dC(R)/dR = EmpMultiplier* [17/18 + P/18]
dC(R)/dP = EmpMultiplier * [5/18 + R/18]
Let G(R) = R*K be the gain from converting a resource.
Marginally, adding more resources is useful so long as:
dC/dR <= K
ie
P <= 18*K/EmpMultiplier - 17
Not counting the money that the headquarters gets, spreading a corp. is worthwhile if:
C(R) <= G(R)
ie
5 and 13/18th + 17/18*R + P*5/18 + R*P/18
<=
K*R/EmpMultiplier
or:
5 and 13/18th + P*5/18
<=
R * [K/EmpMultiplier-17/18-P/18]
So for a Corperation to have a hope to be viable, K/EmpMultiplier-17/18-P/18 must be positive.
Then the threshold at which the coperation becomes a good thing is:
R => [103/18 + 5P/18]/[K/EM-17/18-P/18]
With population 10 and an total EM of 2, and each converted resource worth about 6 $, this works out to:
R => [153/18]/[K/2-1.5]
R => 8.5/[3-1.5]
R => 5.667...
R => 6
you need 6 resources for the corp. to break even.
Hmm.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 12,418
Well I think the real good point is by Roland that Corporate Maintenance is not the Problem, Inflation is. The best way I can see to improve that is
1. Decrease inflation
2. Increase base Costs slightly to compensate
so change Inflation back to 0-100% (so ~2* max rather than ~3* max)
then increase the base costs of Civic, Distance, etc. maintenance by ~50%
That way corporations don't need to be a totally different set of maintenance, (courthouses still help, which I like) but the costs won't vary by two fold (+50% maintenance (1.5) to +200% maintenance (3)) over their life time.
1. Decrease inflation
2. Increase base Costs slightly to compensate
so change Inflation back to 0-100% (so ~2* max rather than ~3* max)
then increase the base costs of Civic, Distance, etc. maintenance by ~50%
That way corporations don't need to be a totally different set of maintenance, (courthouses still help, which I like) but the costs won't vary by two fold (+50% maintenance (1.5) to +200% maintenance (3)) over their life time.
Uncle_Joe
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 491
I personally have had no problems with Corporate Maintenance on Normal Speed/Large Map. Its made for some interesting trade-offs IMO. No, I dont want to spread my corps to every city I own, but I dont think thats a bad thing.
Also, if you are spreading it to foreign nations, it nicely defrays the cost of spreading it into your own cities. If someone comes knocking with corporations of their own, you really need to spread YOURS to others to pay for the new 'foreign' corps...it basically amounts to 'Corporate Warfare'.
In my current game, I'm using Mining Inc and I'm getting 9 Hammers for 11g in most cities. That seems like adequate tradeoff IMO. Yes, the inflation kicks up the cost, but the 9 hammers being 'raw' adds a lot more than the base hammers too. And if I dont need the production at the moment I can set the city to build Wealth and recoup the cost right there.
I honestly dont see the problem unless you are spamming your cities with corps which looks to be a very bad idea. I like that there are trade-offs involved. That makes spreading corps a DECISION, not the no-brainer. And to me, thats what it should be about.
YMMV.
Also, if you are spreading it to foreign nations, it nicely defrays the cost of spreading it into your own cities. If someone comes knocking with corporations of their own, you really need to spread YOURS to others to pay for the new 'foreign' corps...it basically amounts to 'Corporate Warfare'.
In my current game, I'm using Mining Inc and I'm getting 9 Hammers for 11g in most cities. That seems like adequate tradeoff IMO. Yes, the inflation kicks up the cost, but the 9 hammers being 'raw' adds a lot more than the base hammers too. And if I dont need the production at the moment I can set the city to build Wealth and recoup the cost right there.
I honestly dont see the problem unless you are spamming your cities with corps which looks to be a very bad idea. I like that there are trade-offs involved. That makes spreading corps a DECISION, not the no-brainer. And to me, thats what it should be about.
YMMV.
El Koeno
Emperor
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 1,926
That is true. I'd like to see it balanced a bit differently. Although I must say I've never run into the trouble described by others.
killercane
Deity
A deity player rarely messes with shrines. Corporations cost far too much for their benefit when there are many other better ways to convert gold to food/beakers/culture or any combination thereof, regardless of level. That being said, you are doing some nice work here to spur discussion.No Emperor here. So why would a a Deity-level player switch to the worst possible Civic given his incorporations?
And why wouldn't a Deity-level player plan ahead enough to be able to build either of the Corporate HQs next to Wall Street? It can only mean the competing Corporations' HQs are in his Wall Street -- in which case I have to wonder why this back-breaking city isn't running the Corporations he does have Wall Street HQs for.
And why would a Deity-level player hurt himself even more by not spreading his corporations abroad? (That's almost like saying a Deity-level player would found a religion, build the shrine and then never spread it to a single city ... which just doesn't even sound right.!?)
aelf
Ashen One
Me too.
The first instinct of a new player who was excited to try out the new concept of religions in Civ4 was to found as many as he could and build as many shrines as he could and spread the religions as much as he could. But more advanced players realised that it's often not worth the effort building more than 1-2 shrines or spreading more than 1-2 religions extensively. Now, isn't that counterintuitive? You are the first to research a tech and you found an awesome religion, you get a prophet and you can build an awesome shrine, but there is a catch? What the heck is this? This is broken!
Civ4 is a thinking game. If something doesn't work the way you think it does, it does not mean that feature is broken. Try changing the way you think. If you don't wish to do so, then go and play Command and Conquer and build 50 mammoth tanks as quickly as you can or something.
No, you can't build executives, you have to spread the corp BEFORE you switch to SP
Now with cristo redentor (or spiritual, but it's less easy) you can switch civic from time to time to build execs then go back to SP (in one turn with Cristo Redentor).
Uncle_Joe
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 491
My sense of it is that the corporate maintenance is only out of whack at the really high difficulty levels where Inflation hits much harder. So at those levels, the cost to benefit ratio might be out of the order.
For the lower difficulty levels (ie, Noble and Prince), it seems fine.
If that is the case, then the problem is certainly not with corporations, but with the Inflation and/or the Handicaps for the difficulty levels.
Is that a fair assessment at the moment?
Thanks!
For the lower difficulty levels (ie, Noble and Prince), it seems fine.
If that is the case, then the problem is certainly not with corporations, but with the Inflation and/or the Handicaps for the difficulty levels.
Is that a fair assessment at the moment?
Thanks!
Nikis-Knight
Deity
So, aelf, what are the best ways to use corporations? And are these strategies the most fun way that they could have been implemented? Or does asking that question mean I should stick to C & C from now on?
Quite possibly.
you can receive passive benefits for religion, it is spread passively, and it's only negative is diplomatic. religions have their time and place but the penalties for religion are not game breaking, don't need to be actively managed, don't cost more over time, and frankly are a poor analogy for corporations because they are similar in few ways, and certainly NOT in any of the ways that people find fault with corporations.
eric_
Emperor
See, that's the thing: corporations are spread actively, so, unless a foreign civ is spamming your cities with them (against which you can retaliate by doing the same), there's no reason why your domestic corps should be overwhelming your economy. As someone mentioned earlier, it's like corporate warfare. I kind of like this, as it's like direct economic warfare, which most definitely happens in the real world. Also, people have mentioned the AI building corporate offices in their cities, so they will do that. If you don't like repeatedly driving them to SP, don't repeatedly overrun their civ with corps.
Two questions, though:
1) Can a spy destroy an HQ and/or a corporate office?
2) Can a foreign civ build a corporation in a domestic city that has a competitor in it, thereby eliminating the corporate office you had there initially?
Two questions, though:
1) Can a spy destroy an HQ and/or a corporate office?
2) Can a foreign civ build a corporation in a domestic city that has a competitor in it, thereby eliminating the corporate office you had there initially?
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
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- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 12,418
@Roland (and others)
Having seen their intent to increase Inflation drastically (and make it non linear), I think that the decoupling of Corporates from Inflation (and making it 2-3* more costly) is probably better. (although if they can still tie to Courthouses it would be good)
Having seen their intent to increase Inflation drastically (and make it non linear), I think that the decoupling of Corporates from Inflation (and making it 2-3* more costly) is probably better. (although if they can still tie to Courthouses it would be good)
Nikis-Knight
Deity
1) I think not, they can't hit wonders or religions.
2)yes, for a slightly higher start-up fee.
that's a problem with the AI. If the optimal strategy is to spread corps to foreign civs, as much as possible, why isn't the AI pursuing this strategy for themselves or with the same vigor as the player.
In fact I think it'd be pretty clever for an AI to spread your own corps BACK at you if they don't own any themselves. reason being, this way you are run a risk when spreading corporations overseas, they arent a "no brainer" decision. open pandora's box so to speak.
having your own domestic corps isnt bad, but if the AI is clever enough to put them where you don't want them, you will get less benefit from them AND any flux in resources will aggregate into disaster.
aelf
Ashen One
I don't know what you mean by directing this question at me and in this manner.
Do you really have no clue about how to use corporations? Do you really think they are broken?
You may like to see everyone as potentially right, but to me that's just sitting on the fence. I can't tell you the best way to use corporations. Who can do so at this point? But I know for sure that corporations are not as broken as some people here make them out to be. People are complaining that corporations are useless and not worth the costs at all, and this is becoming a popular refrain. My posts are a reaction to those. I just don't see why people want to make every aspect of the game so idiot proof. Some have already stated that they think corporations should = lots of cash. They seem to be looking for some sort uber religions, which they can mindlessly spam (like mammoth tanks). They think that more must be good. Why can't less be good?
eric_
Emperor
Thanks Nikis!
eric_
Emperor
But, it's not the optimal strategy, as you will ultimately force them in to SP, thereby losing the benefit of reaping their maintenance costs and depriving yourself of a way to offset the cost of having the corp at home. If you're more sparing in spreading it to their cities--and careful about spreading it only to those cities which will help them most or hurt them least--they'll be more likely to let the corps continue to function.
Another thing, you don't want to spread them willy-nilly to a civ that you plan to conquer in a bid for expansion, because then all that foreign corp income becomes domestic corp maintenance.
I've definitely heard of AIs spreading corporations to other civs...I see no reason why they wouldn't spread them back at the founder...
aelf
Ashen One
They both are similar in that spreading them too much is counterproductive. It's just that corporations hit you with a bigger stick if you do that and you must therefore be more reserved.
driving them to SP means that you are taking a huge net hit on your investment too. Which means you will likely go SP. But here's the problem with not over'running them; they will do it themselves. They aren't applying any modicum of strategy that we are figuring out to make corps work well.
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