Correct me where I'm wrong [Immortal difficulty, looking to move up to Deity)

[Forbiddentwo]

I wasn't really sure how to format this post, or how to title it, but basically it feels like there are huge swaths of the game that I just don't engage in, and I'd like to know where I'm making mistakes wrt that.

Things I seldom (basically never) build:

Recon:

Scouts- I experimented with them and it seemed like great fun to use them... but I am basically gambling that there are no horse barbarians nearby. If there are, I'm screwed.

Rangers - because why? By the time you can, it's too late for them to matter.

Melee:

Warriors- because why bother when you can make Archers. Sure, you may occasionally need 1 for when your initial warrior dies, but otherwise it's better to go the his Majesty's army route.

Swordsmen, Musketmen- You need to actually find their resources to even make them, and they're meh in the face of HIS MAJESTY'S ARMY, NOW WITH CROSSBOWS, for pretty much the same reason that warriors were. MAYBE I could use one or two, but I can get by just fine without them except in situations where I should leave well enough alone regardless (facing Kongo and their damn swordsman replacement swarms).

Infantry, Mechanized Infantry- because by that point I've usually conquered my continent (or lost) and have access to oil at least, possibly uranium, and tech has snowballed to the point where I can just wait till I have those. In short: "Ewwww, melee."

Anti Cavalry:

Spearmen, Pikemen- see above. Even when faced with cavalry, because fights between them seem way too even, despite the fact that they're supposed to counter cavalry... the Greek UU is better, but not good enough considering that they'll just upgrade to pikemen.

AT Crew, Modern AT- I guess I might need them if I didn't have access to tanks and such, but in those cases I think I might want to just go with infantry for the promotion lines.

(On a related note, I noticed mention of their promotions being inferior to those of warrior type units, and that got me wondering: Which promotions actually affect taking enemy cities? Presumably tortoise helps vs city wall/civil engineering attacks, but then what about on the attack? Do bonuses vs melee units help vs an unoccupied city, or one that is garrisoned with a melee unit?)

Ranged:

Field cannons, machineguns- because by that point I can just make tanks/modern armor or at least armies of cavalry and stomp all over enemy cities that way. In fact I've found that I tend to ignore crossbowmen as well (largely due to upgrade costs) in favor of cavalry to storm enemy cities.

Light Cavalry:

Helicopters- I do tend to upgrade my horsemen into them, but as noted above for some reason even huge armies of veteran scythian helicopters tend to do pitiful damage vs city defenses, whereas tank armies do just fine...

Heavy Cavalry:

Heavy Chariots. Because why? Just why? They're slow, and his majesty's army + a warrior or two handles things just fine. Knights are in the same boat, although they have the advantage vs units from earlier eras. I do sometimes make a fair number of Knights but... meh.

Siege and support:

Any of it, other than Siege towers. The few times I've tried, I've regretted it.

Aircraft of any type. It just seems like too much of a hassle. Maybe if i didn't NEED an aerodome, and the range restriction was a bit less ridiculous. What ever happened to in-flight refueling? Can I at least use friendly City States as airbases?

Also, do helicopters have some penalty against cities? It seems like the power difference between them and tanks is not that great, but my tank armies can smash their way through city defenses whereas helicopter armies' attacks all plink off (I was kinda hoping they'd have hellfire missiles or something).


Any naval units, except occasionally to take out some annoying barbarian ships. Even the token caravel to find other continents/the occasional island feels like a bit of a waste.

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It also seems really hard to find a decent place to fit in Theater districts, and even entertainment districts. Usually I end up with a commercial district, then a campus, then I'm not really sure where to go from there beyond making the occasional industrial and entertainment districts to get all of my cities within the radius of a factory and stadium.

Maybe saying that it's hard to fit them in isn't quite right... it's more like I lack a sense of purpose when making them, beyond "oh okay, time to build this I guess".

Encampments are also on the list of "not sure when to build, aside from 'after my commercial district and campus'". I've recently come around to the idea of spamming a whole bunch of them for one final lategame push, but I've managed to win without doing so, so... yeah...

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TLDR:

I'm stuck in a rut, going through the motions of

Archers -> Invasion while making settlers (since I've already got as many units as my gold income can support)
Commercial district -> Campus -> ???
Political philosophy -> Feudalism -> ???

Conquest until I start feeling the strain economically. Build up the usual infrastructure (making internal trade routes and buildings) to fund another wave of murder frenzy, then stop when I feel like it to go for some other strategy... or don't, and kill every other civ.

More or less building the same units, taking the same tech paths, etc.

I know I'm not doing things as efficiently as possible (not even close) but I'm not sure how to mix things up without also causing a catastrophic waste of turns, essentially building myself into a corner so that I end up in an unwinnable situation.

I've already tried a few different strategies in early game and all of them pretty much depend on luck, so it seems like Archers or bust early on... and it feels hideously suboptimal to deviate from the usual pattern once I've started down that path.

Thoughts? Comments? Escargot?

***edit***

To clarify: I have already won via each of the victory conditions but culture, even though I could swear that I've been in positions where I should have won a culture victory...

For Science I just make a kajillion cities after the token early game archer invasion, then beeline research labs.

For Domination I just don't stop with the invasion waves.

For Religion I just zerg swarm the enemy with apostles rather than military units. Missionaries are cheaper but they seem kinda meh because of the promotions that Apostles can get.

 

[madeirabhoy]

i agree with some of this. navy seems a waste of time. i accidentally have 3 battleships and to save bothering to move them ive left them on explore.
i dont seem to get round to building certain things, anything religious, commercial districts, and not you mention it siege units and aircraft.

 

[EpicWestern]

Scouts- I experimented with them and it seemed like great fun to use them... but I am basically gambling that there are no horse barbarians nearby. If there are, I'm screwed.

Early scout is *good* vs horsemen rush, not bad. It spots the outposts for you and lets you keep your warrior near to home (since you're scouting with something else). Early city state bonuses, eurekas from finding continents and wonders, finding villages, gives you a good picture for overall strategy etc.. Its just a lot of small advantages that add up. Rushbuying a slinger and teching hard to archers should be enough to stop a horseman rush. There's no way I'm going warrior first anyway. If my starting location is closed off on most sides I won't go scout and just go straight to either builder or monument, but scout just gives you so much info and flexibility early game its my goto first production.

Rangers - because why? By the time you can, it's too late for them to matter.

Yeah, rangers are terrible, though there's a small use for them in that if you go for the +1 amenity for garrisoned units you can put scouts in all your cities. Then when policy is discontinued you can just upgrade to rangers to help you clear barbarian outposts or whatever.

Any of it, other than Siege towers. The few times I've tried, I've regretted it.

Disagree pretty strongly here, battering ram is pretty much a staple for early domination games. Lots of civs have various melee units that are strong enough that there's no real point in going ranged, you can overpower small cities even when they have walls up.

Any naval units, except occasionally to take out some annoying barbarian ships. Even the token caravel to find other continents/the occasional island feels like a bit of a waste.

Again strongly disagree, battleships are just ridiculously powerful in sea based domination games. I've even taken out capitals in non-domination games with frigates just because well, I could. Going 2 galleys into 2 caravels is pretty standard for the eurekas for any type of island game. Even without the eurekas the speed and sight bonus of caravels makes it my scout of choice as opposed to missionaries and actual scouts.

It also seems really hard to find a decent place to fit in Theater districts, and even entertainment districts. Usually I end up with a commercial district, then a campus, then I'm not really sure where to go from there beyond making the occasional industrial and entertainment districts to get all of my cities within the radius of a factory and stadium.

Really just depends on what victory type you're going. Not too complicated, religion you go holy sites, culture you go theater square, science you go campus, domination you go encampment, unless other civs are far from you in which you go campus. I'm pretty much never going commercial district first. What's second usually depends on the city state situation.

I'm stuck in a rut, going through the motions of

Archers -> Invasion while making settlers (since I've already got as many units as my gold income can support)
Commercial district -> Campus -> ???
Political philosophy -> Feudalism -> ???

You might just need to mix up the map some more. Obviously you can't archer rush on islands, and you also get a chance to play the navy game that you might not have otherwise gotten to.

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Anyway, I agree with most of the rest of your post though.

 

[Forbiddentwo]

I'm pretty much never going commercial district first. What's second usually depends on the city state situation.

Mind = blown.

You might just need to mix up the map some more. Obviously you can't archer rush on islands, and you also get a chance to play the navy game that you might not have otherwise gotten to.

Isn't the AI even worse wrt naval combat?

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

I agree with most points, for the same reasons. I'd like to highlight a few points, though, which I disagree.

• Warriors: I usually build an early Warrior or two (along with the traditional Slingers/Archers). Put the city into siege (basically, have every tile surrounding that enemy city under ZoC of your units, so it doesn't heal) and cities take much less to fall.
• Battering Rams and Catapults: those are good because they destroy enemy walls and are available earlier. After walls are down, your Archers can safely pound awayat the city. I prefer Rams for movement reasons, though your melee units do get damaged against the wall.
• Swordsman (actually, Legions): I agree Swordsmen may be somewhat weak, but don't lump Legions with them. 3 Legions can take an early walled city without any siege engine, and, in terms of pure strength, are the strongest unit of the Classical Era.
• Heavy Chariots: Yep, less mobile and weaker than Horsemen. Yet, they cost less, are available earlier, don't need resources and upgrade to Knights (see below).
• Knights: A Knight rush with upgraded Chariots makes a strong timing attack, because they're stronger than anything up to Stirrups and as mobile as Horsemen. Also, their only real counter comes with Cavalry, way way ahead (Pikes don't count, and they overrun Crossbows with their superior movement).
• Naval units: As it's been said, but I'll add the option to play as Brazil for a naval late domination. If Battleships are evil, then Minas Geraes are the devil incarnate. 3 range and 80 friggin' ranged strength. A couple shots blasts any wall to smithereens.
• Encampments: I've been enjoying them after the Factory nerf. Relatively cheap and buildings provide housing and production. The bonus experience is quite minor, but the extra shot sometimes proves useful against barbarians. Also, it's the only district with a card that directly boosts production towards building it (and a military one, considered a less useful type)

 

[Victoria]

Your post makes sense, like most of us you are not robotically efficient.
I stopped doing what you do ages ago or I would have stopped playing by now. I concentrate on the other 90 % of the game and pretty much ignore victory conditions as a capitalist plot.

Its a shame that imm/dei come down to agression but thats the way the game is. I prefer the peaceful approach and try and vary my gameplay to avoid zzzzzz

Try a game on islands or try a game where you onlybtake capitals unless a city gets directly in the way. Or just move up tondeity, yoyr strat is fine

 

[Forbiddentwo]

Try a game on islands or try a game where you onlybtake capitals unless a city gets directly in the way. Or just move up tondeity, yoyr strat is fine

Is the AI competitive on island maps?

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

Is the AI competitive on island maps?

Not that much, but it forcefully prevents the usual steamroll and city spam that leads to 15+ cities by turn 100. Also, usually OP civs like Sumeria and Scythia gets less OP.

 

[Chibisuke]

Since archers can't capture cities, warriors or war chariots are a necessity on deity where early conquest just has to happen in most games.

The ability of the AI to have one AI civ leap out ahead to a massive lead (usually by conquering neighbors and city states) is the biggest threat on deity and will set you up for a science loss unless you are keeping up to some extent. This usually means you just have to capture a bunch of AI stuff too.

 

[EpicWestern]

Mind = blown.

I'm not trying to say commercial district is weak or anything, overall its probably the best district, just for each victory type the obvious main district is more important.

Isn't the AI even worse wrt naval combat?

Yeah its impossible to actually lose militarily in island games, but IMO you're on a more difficult 'clock'.

 

[Forbiddentwo]

P.s. Even after reading the guide I still don't know how to win a cultural victory. Even making everything culture related and outright conquering my closest competitors doesn't seem to do it.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

For a Culture Victory, you need to win the amount of tourists indicated in the Culture Victory overview. First of all, there's an important distinction: Domestic and Foreign Tourism.

Domestic Tourism is generated by your Culture. A higher amount of Domestic Tourism indicates that your tourists are staying in your empire, instead of going to other Civs and increasing their chances to win a Cultural Victory. Thinking in terms of RPGs, Domestic Tourism is your defense in the tourism game.

Foreign Tourism is the tourism you generate through a number of ways (and see in the top bar, along your gold, science etc). This is your attack status. The higher it is, the more foreign tourists want to come to your empire.

The amount of tourists coming and going is calculated by your accumulated tourism/culture over time. You win when your accumulated tourism over time surpasses the accumulated culture generated by all the other civs by a certain amount (this amount indicated by number of tourists needed to win). Note that while your tourism may not win over a certain civ, you can compensate by attracting more tourists from the other civs.

Long story short: You want to accumulate heavy amounts of tourism, in a waythat the AI culture can't keep up (either by massively overwhelming them late game, or winning before they have the chance to build up culture). It's a race between your tourism and their culture.

Keeping that in mind, reread the Culture Victory guide, and now it'll make more sense. And remember: what wins a CV is tourism, not culture (though usually culture indirectly boosts tourism).

 

[gimper42]

I always build a battering ram for my first army. Then later I add a siege tower and run it concurrently with the ram for the remainder of the game. With both effects running, your melee will destroy the walls and attack the city at full strength with each attack. This kills the city faster and gets your range units hitting the city's health sooner.

I could not disagree more with your assessment of melee units. But to each their own, I suppose. I try to run a fairly even mix of melee to range units in the early part of the game and then add 2 or 3 bombards when those become available and I can buy them with faith. If you kinda rush towards musketmen they should be destroying almost anything on the field of battle when you get them. The single exception I have seen thus far is going up against Japan while he still had a lot of Samurai. Those bastards are tough on deity.

 

[Forbiddentwo]

• Swordsman (actually, Legions): I agree Swordsmen may be somewhat weak, but don't lump Legions with them. 3 Legions can take an early walled city without any siege engine, and, in terms of pure strength, are the strongest unit of the Classical Era.

Are they tied with Varu, or do cavalry have a penalty vs walls (or cities in general)?

I'm still baffled by the apparent difference in results when using tank armies vs cities, and using helicopter armies vs cities.

 

[diamond geezer]

Are they tied with Varu, or do cavalry have a penalty vs walls (or cities in general)?

I'm still baffled by the apparent difference in results when using tank armies vs cities, and using helicopter armies vs cities.

IRL tanks, backed by infantry OFC, take cities. Never heard of Helicopters taking one. I'm baffled by your baffledness...

 

[Forster]

For a Culture Victory, you need to win the amount of tourists indicated in the Culture Victory overview. First of all, there's an important distinction: Domestic and Foreign Tourism.

Domestic Tourism is generated by your Culture. A higher amount of Domestic Tourism indicates that your tourists are staying in your empire, instead of going to other Civs and increasing their chances to win a Cultural Victory. Thinking in terms of RPGs, Domestic Tourism is your defense in the tourism game.

Foreign Tourism is the tourism you generate through a number of ways (and see in the top bar, along your gold, science etc). This is your attack status. The higher it is, the more foreign tourists want to come to your empire.

The amount of tourists coming and going is calculated by your accumulated tourism/culture over time. You win when your accumulated tourism over time surpasses the accumulated culture generated by all the other civs by a certain amount (this amount indicated by number of tourists needed to win). Note that while your tourism may not win over a certain civ, you can compensate by attracting more tourists from the other civs.

Long story short: You want to accumulate heavy amounts of tourism, in a waythat the AI culture can't keep up (either by massively overwhelming them late game, or winning before they have the chance to build up culture). It's a race between your tourism and their culture.

Keeping that in mind, reread the Culture Victory guide, and now it'll make more sense. And remember: what wins a CV is tourism, not culture (though usually culture indirectly boosts tourism).

The problem I have is that tourism requires open borders, right? All the games I have played so far, you never can get open borders with the AI civs after the early game. When you meet a new player mid to late game, you might get it for a brief period, but then those civs turn yellow or red and won't give open borders again. So, to get the CV, how do you get the tourists, or do they not need open borders late game?[/

 

[Victoria]

The problem I have is that tourism requires open borders, right? All the games I have played so far, you never can get open borders with the AI civs after the early game. When you meet a new player mid to late game, you might get it for a brief period, but then those civs turn yellow or red and won't give open borders again. So, to get the CV, how do you get the tourists, or do they not need open borders late game?[/

Nope. Open borders only gives you 25% extra while a trade route can give anywhere between 25 and over 100% if you can get 500+ tourism with computers you should win, the rest just speeds it up

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

The problem I have is that tourism requires open borders, right? All the games I have played so far, you never can get open borders with the AI civs after the early game. When you meet a new player mid to late game, you might get it for a brief period, but then those civs turn yellow or red and won't give open borders again. So, to get the CV, how do you get the tourists, or do they not need open borders late game?[/

Also, late game you'll probably be swimming in gold, so although Open Borders might get expensive, it's still quite affordable.

Often I stop warmongering after my first few neighbors, so the warmonger penalty has some time to reduce. Then, fulfilling any agendas that don't clash with your objectives, sending trade routes, offering Open Borders and the such are able to neutralize relations. Just remember to keep a decent army around too to avoid wars.

 

[Victoria]

Btw you can get open borders on deity early just not with many at once. Tourism only starts working well when you get about 500 so do not worry before then and even when you do it's not a huge deal, just helpful

 

[Forster]

I try not to get in fights after classical, but the AI doesn't always agree, and, so far, I don't think I have seen more than one or two civs that return to neutral from yellow or red opinion. This usually leads to other civs wanting trades that are essentially gifts or so unfavorable as to be ridiculous.