Cossacks are pretty bad

[Infiltrator]

Anyone feel the same? Bonus against wounded is probably the worst perk a unit could get, and that's the only thing differentiating them from their vanilla counterparts.

I understand the perk makes sense in a realistic meaning, but there are so many other things they could have done to retain both realism and viable gameplay.

IF the russians had a way of using a long range, low-damage area effect than I would understand. But please, don't tell me how you're supposed to use archery/siege to soften them up and then go in with them. It's practically impossible because of the 1UPT to squeeze in archers/siege, shoot something and then charge it with cossacks for increased damage, and I'm not even considering riflemen or melee units in there.

The other obstruction is the finishing off aspect. 9/10 times, regular cavalry would have no problems taking care of anything that's been shot by your archers/artillery.

3rd problem is the tech route, quite inconvenient and long compared to most UUs in the game. I think the cossack might actually be the latest first UU that any nation gets.

And finally, once you do get them, a little while later they become obsolete because there's nothing to upgrade them into, a fittingly sad end to the rest of the story.

FYI my thoughts are based on 2 Immortal games - standard size/time, terra 1st, Pangaea 2nd. I won both on domination but surely no thanks to Cossacks.

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Now, as for suggestions - first I would leave them where they are in the tech route, it's painful but it's the only place that makes sense.

What I would change is their special abilities - IF they were to retain the bonus vs wounded, I would suggest to add a lower-powered range attack to the cossacks. That would enable one squad to wound units, and the other one to move in with the "melee" attack.

Any other suggestions can go here, but this one is the first that crossed my mind.


Also, please.. don't tell me "omg, I used cossacks and they were great, also I play on <difficulty lower than emperor>". Did they do any better than regular cavalry? Worth the effort to beeline to them like the other UUs?

 

[darkurthe]

Cavalry was used differently throughout history.

For example, it was used much differently is say the Seven Years War as opposed to Napoleon's wars and that is only a span of 50 or so years. (note the use of infantry also falls into this category... but warfare style was different). Cav was mostly (I think) used then for mopping up or countering cav, not directly engaging infantry.

I wonder how well the finishing off ability would be against Japan's fight at full strength regardless of injuries.

 

[wapamingo]

simple, allow them to ignore ZoC so they can get in and finish wounded units.

 

[Iberian]

If altered the way you suggest that would be awesome. Too awesome. I would never build any other unit. Seige is too slow, if I can range attack a city and then attack with my nearby GG supporting my uber Cossack and retreat it would be the ultimate unit.

Maybe we could give them +1 mp to help them chase down units? Or friendly territory as roads?

 

[Infiltrator]

I'm not trying to argue anything about history and how cavalry was used. Just stating how gameplay wise Cossacks are utterly inviable and offer no reason for you to tech to them besides role playing.

 

[Venereus]

With ranged support being the norm, bonus against damaged units it's awesome. WTH is wrong with you?

 

[Infiltrator]

With ranged support being the norm, bonus against damaged units it's awesome. WTH is wrong with you?

Read the topic before you post garbage like this.

 

[Venereus]

Read the topic before you post garbage like this.

I still don't understand your reasoning for dishing ranged support. Why do you find it so hard to use in tandem with cavalry?

 

[Ahriman]

Agree with the OP. Weak ability plus no upgrade opportunities = weakest UU.

 

[w00tm0ng3r]

Completely agree. Cavalry are some of the strongest units around in their time period anyway, and a bonus against wounded units is like the promotion that gives you a bonus against units on open terrain: you'd kill them just fine without it. I'd much rather see either a movement point bonus or the removal of that rough terrain penalty. Cossacks are light cavalry anyway... why are they treated like medieval knights with 60 pounds of armor on the man and 80 on the horse rather than as similarly lightly clad "horsemen"?

 

[Infiltrator]

I still don't understand your reasoning for dishing ranged support. Why do you find it so hard to use in tandem with cavalry?

I already explained that.

Due to the siege/range slow speed and the fast movement of the cavalry, coupled with the 1UPT mechanic, it's really hard to get into a scenario where you wound a unit (by the time cossacks are into play cannons typically one-hit-kill anything) and then finish him off with the cossacks, and when it DOES, guess what - the same outcome would be if you had regular cavalry, I tested it and found the differences are almost non-existent.

Just the lamest ability possible, there's no going around it. Like I said, if there was a russian UA or other UU to synergize with them by doing mass -1 hp damage I could see them useful, but not like this.

 

[Venereus]

I already explained that.

Due to the siege/range slow speed and the fast movement of the cavalry, coupled with the 1UPT mechanic, it's really hard to get into a scenario where you wound a unit (by the time cossacks are into play cannons typically one-hit-kill anything) and then finish him off with the cossacks, and when it DOES, guess what - the same outcome would be if you had regular cavalry, I tested it and found the differences are almost non-existent.

Just the lamest ability possible, there's no going around it. Like I said, if there was a russian UA or other UU to synergize with them by doing mass -1 hp damage I could see them useful, but not like this.

Oh, I see your point now. But is it an issue for Cossacks only? I mean, the promotion looks good for earlier units in earlier eras.

 

[Infiltrator]

The promotion would be good early when you are battling small skirmishes with 3-4 units on each side that slowly pick away the health, archers doing 2 damage etc. In late renaissance, those types of battles are long gone.

 

[w00tm0ng3r]

Oh, I see your point now. But is it an issue for Cossacks only? I mean, the promotion looks good for earlier units in earlier eras.

It's not a promotion... It's the Cossack's innate ability and the only thing separating them from regular cavalry. That's the issue: the only bonus Cossacks get is almost completely useless. They may as well be regular cavalry, which looks bad for the Russians since their only unique unit is virtually the same as the vanilla unit it replaces.

 

[0R4NG3]

I think a good solution would be either giving them +1mp or making them a lot cheaper, since after all Cossacks were not regular military units, the state didn't really have to train them, so it would make sense to make them ~25-50% cheaper.