COTM 14 Pre-game Discussion

[solenoozerec]

Can someone who knows better tell me if this is in fact a really stupid idea? Also will those raging barbarians have eaten my foolish settler and worker by 3400BC?

I do not think that you should worry about barbs at 3400BC.
But you plan to trade early granary for early settler.
Whether this is a good idea or not depends on your objectives.
If you want to expand fast, then it is a bad idea.
If you want to go for 20K and you want it in your second city, then I am not a proper person to judge you.

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

Starting Research: Republic Slingshot

Starting Worker: E,Irrigate,Road,SW,Chop,(Mine),SW,Chop,Road,(Mine); I always go for more food early & I prefer the extra early shields of chopping and commerce generated by river/fur that doesn't require a road to working the BG's

Starting builds: Settler,Granary or Granary,Settler; probably the former so my second city can get out some exploration quicker while my capital concentrates on expansion


@WetSawdustDemon regarding 20K question: if I were doing 20K I would start by building a settler which would try to settler just in range of the cow to share if needed, not cutting any of the fur/forest so they will be 3 shield after Republic, and then making my capital my 20K city as it is an awesome site; if we share the island you'd still be in good shape going for the Republic slingshot, otherwise you wouldn't have any wonders to start on until philosophy or a 1 tech detour, which could be bad also

 

[eldar]

If all you have is a Settler at 3400BC, you won't encounter any Barbs, unless they're placed on the map...

I'm thinking of a tech-related win, with a late Mid-ages/early Industrial GA triggered by a Man-o-War. (Magellan's also gives a GA at around the same time.)

 

[Redbad]

That gets you a settler on turn 12 and hopefully the worker has found somewhere nice to build the 20K city. Can someone who knows better tell me if this is in fact a really stupid idea? Also will those raging barbarians have eaten my foolish settler and worker by 3400BC?

I concur with solen that you don't have to worry about barbs that early.

Concerning your 20K goal:
Not wanting to use your capitol for 20K is a good idea, because it makes the palace-prebuild possible which is quite important at emporer-level.
And when not using your capitol for 20K it's a good idea to get a settler asap. Especially at emporer there is not much time to acquire some AA-wonders.

But now things get a little complicated:

20K location:
The starting location is actually quite good for a 20K site, considering the moo, furs, bg's and hills and it's seasight location. I will come back on that seaside location.
So the first decision you have to make is:
do I settle in place and hope to find a good 20K-site nearby or
do I for example move the settler 2E and settle my 20K city on the starting position.

Techs
The starting techs of the English are quite hopeless regarding 20K. Normally you would want techs like Ceremonial Burial, Mysticism and Bronze Working in order to make some decent 20K buildings. Not only do you have to research them all (you would be quite lucky if you can trade in time for some of them) but researching them will undoubtly cost you the Republic slingshot. So that's another decision you have to make.
Because you want to study fast and both your capitol and 20K city need improved tiles it's not a very good idea to explore with the worker. Maybe it's a better idea to start with a warrior and then the settler. The warrior can scout nearby and then mp/defend the 20K city.

Wonders:
Not only are the starting techs awfull, the superb 20K-wonder Colossus will give you a premature GA. You have to decide if you want that or not. If decide against it then there is no urgent reason to have your 20K at the seaside. The other seawonders are too low on culture to prioritise. Someone said maybe the GLight can be used to give a timely GA. This would of course mean that you have to go for the RepSS rightaway, and thus no early temple and most likely no Oracle.

All in all some though decisions. And of course at emporer there is allways the stress to choose between the empire and the 20K-city. When prioritising the empire to much there's the risk to many early wonders go to the AI. When prioritising the 20K-city, the AI may become quite strong and you may loose out on some important MA-wonders.

 

[Più Freddo]

But what victory condition are you going for?

Any except 20'000 Culture. Fast expansion, fast research.

Waiting that long without roading any tiles doesn't do anything to increace Commerce

I claimed that it does and I still think it does. The Fur bonus to the southern Grasslands is a shield and a coin. The bonus to the Bonus Grasslands is only a shield. But most importantly, research towards The Republic is promoted by early growth, not by collecting early pennies.

those juicy 3-shield tiles

There are already two Hills in sight. What's so special about Hill equivalents!?

I'd rather have the Grassland under the Forest giving me food, and the forests giving me 10 very early shields. Remember, this is Conquests, chopping is fast.

And again, I think the Furs give us The Republic faster than do the Beegees.

 

[Xerol]

Yeah, I'm probably gonna do some chopping. First move, however, is going to be worker 1NE; there's a chance that there's another food bonus up there, and with it, the possibility of getting to +5 food. Is another food bonus likely? Probably not. But I just have to look.

First COTM for me, and while I'm chasing shields in the GOTMs, I'm going for high scores here.

Just a quick note in doing test games - I used the same settings as in this month's game, and got a HORRIBLE start. Only 9 settlable land tiles, and the Maya on the same island as me. After turn one there were 6 unclaimed tiles on the island, all mountains.

I'm not sure what victory I'm going for here; I have yet to submit a Diplo win in any GOTM, I might go for that here, keeping Space open as an option as well. Archipelago probably means slightly slower tech rate, so a quick date probably isn't as likely as on a more land-y map.

If there IS another civ on our landmass, obviously I'm going to try to take them out early. Early builds will depend on this - I might skip a Granary and go straight to a Barracks if we meet someone else.

EDIT: Also, I think I see another furs 2SE of the start.

 

[pindicator]

I will move the Worker straight south, this Fur appears to be off the river, then most likely settle in place. The Worker will chop the forest, mine it and then road it just in time for our growth to size 3. (We do have to adjust the luxury level at size 2 before that.) The timber goes towards a Granary, our first build timed for 3250 BC. It then repeats in the Fur forest to the south-west with the timber this time hurrying a Settler arriving moderately early in 2950 BC after a Warrior in 3150 BC. Only then will I irrigate the Cattle. Irrigating it earlier either makes us work the relatively poor Beegees (in terms of shields and commerce) in order to preserve the additional food, or it delays the arrival of timber from the Fur forests without adding extra food (if we work the forests before we improve them). By cutting down two Fur forests ASAP I only have to work a commerceless Beegee for three turns of the first 28.

I've been running the numbers on Più's very interesting opening turns, and maybe I'm misunderstanding or just messing up in my calculations, but I have that second forest chop (after worker chops, mines, roads, and then moves SW) occuring on the IBT after 3200BC, which would waste it on the warrior instead of using it on the settler like you wrote before. As I see it the worker turns do the following

4000 move south
3950 chop forest
3750 mine
3550 road
3400 move southwest
3350 chop forest

leaving the forest chop to come through on the IBT after 3200BC, right when the warrior would finish up. Have I overlooked something here?

 

[Più Freddo]

4000 move south
3950 chop forest
3750 mine
3550 road
3400 move southwest
3350 chop forest

Mining is six turns:

3450 road
3300 move southwest
3250 chop forest

 

[pindicator]

aha! that it is

What's also nice about that start, Più, is that if you wanted to you have a 6-turn warrior/settler factory all set up after the first settler comes out.

 

[Hannabir]

Making a second Worker immediately seems to be the way to go, as usual. That way we won't be working undeveloped tiles and chop away a lot faster.

I hope that the first spoiler requirements will not be so demanding this time. In this month's game, I wiped out a neighbour, got to 20 cities, and still can't access the first thread because I have not met everyone yet ...

 

[Karasu]

How about making predators settle one to the east.

that would be interesting, wouldn't it...

I had in mind to remove RoP agreement (for predator), to compensate for stronger AI -but I am not sure of the impact on the game, and I haven't had time to test it yet.
Maybe some other time...

 

[solenoozerec]

I hope that the first spoiler requirements will not be so demanding this time. In this month's game, I wiped out a neighbour, got to 20 cities, and still can't access the first thread because I have not met everyone yet ...

If you are talking about GOTM44. There was no requirement to meet everyone. There is a requirement to meet everyone who can be connected by sea.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

that would be interesting, wouldn't it...

I had in mind to remove RoP agreement (for predator), to compensate for stronger AI -but I am not sure of the impact on the game, and I haven't had time to test it yet.

Now that would be neat. On a archipelago map, the only likely reason why you'd need a RoP is a rape...

 

[Renata]

If you are talking about GOTM44. There was no requirement to meet everyone. There is a requirement to meet everyone who can be connected by sea.

He was talking about COTM13, I believe.

Renata

 

[Hannabir]

If you are talking about GOTM44. There was no requirement to meet everyone. There is a requirement to meet everyone who can be connected by sea.

COTM13: First Spoiler
"In order to read this thread, you must have reached the middle ages, and must have contact with all surviving opponents. You must also have the map of the majority of the starting continent, including at least the location of the capital city of each civilization."

Strictly speaking, I also failed that last requirement, since there was one civ without a capital.

 

[solenoozerec]

since there was one civ without a capital.

You mean a settler escape?

 

[Jove]

Remember, this is Conquests, chopping is fast.

Definitely got me on that point- I'm still in PTW mode, thinking 10-turn chop vs. working the cattle right away. 4-turn chops change the equation. Looks like we agree that a quick Republic is the priority. I'll have to think again about what will be the fastest way to get there- maybe you're right after all. I'll get back to the site tonight hopefully.

 

[Markus5]

Più Freddo has a good set of opening moves. I played a bunch of quick test games and had good luck with similar strategies. In my games, an early curragh turned out to be handy, too. Lots of contacts will be needed for trade. Extra gold for research and for the early republic are important. Being on an island will be nice for the republic-push to conquor the island, if its shared. With the extra cash, you can keep up a decent tech pace after becoming a republic, and you can pull the garisons out of more cities away from the borders to make a decent stack. You don't have to worry about more than one border. By this time you should be building spears and swords, so a warrior rush can be quite effective.

 

[klarius]

My current thinking for the opening is:
Move on cow, if nothing revealed - settle in place.
Irrigate cow, but don't road. Grow in 6.
Note, irrigating the cow you can work a forest fur + cow for 4 turns and still grow in 6 @ size 2+. If you don't need the shields you can grow in 5.
Build warrior, then granary with two chopped furs (no roads, no mine). One growth cycle will be in 5 the other in 6 (haven't decided which way round).
This gives still a lot of commerce even w/o roads, because the furs can be worked earlier instead of using the BGs.
If I didn't mess up the calculation, I get granary in 3250 and settler in 3000 w/o risking a total farmer's gambit early.

 

[Hannabir]

My current thinking for the opening is:
I get granary in 3250 and settler in 3000 w/o risking a total farmer's gambit early.

With my second worker, I'm only 1 turn behind you with granary and settler, and I will have roads by that time.