COTM 14 Pre-game Discussion

[Megalou]

Why would you build several warriors when curraghs move three times as fast and it's an archipelgo map?

 

[MeteorPunch]

Why would you build several warriors when curraghs move three times as fast and it's an archipelgo map?

I gotta know what's on the mainland + they become MP. Probably build warrior, curragh, warrior (if necessary), granary, settler.

 

[cas]

quite an array of opening move choices. good job Karasu.

settle in place. build cycle: warrior (2750), curragh (2650) with chop, granary (3200) with chop and whip, settler (2850), then I'll have to decide what's next based on contacts and any map i've explored. worker turns: S, SW, chop, NE, chop, road, N on road and east to cow, irrigate, road, SW, start chop.

This employs a whip, 2 chops, and some micromanagement...but at 2800bc London will be size 2 and my worker will be chopping a forest for the next build and my next settler will be moving to found York. Also it gets a curragh out quick...which some ppl seem to be neglecting in their openings to get a granary up asap...with England...on a Archi/80% water map...

Downsides to this are a couple of wasted worker turns and wasted shields...and the unhappy whip factor. But it puts me ahead of most other starts i've tested and there are still 2 forests in range of London for chops.

 

[Più Freddo]

This employs a whip

Are you sure you want to do that in your capital?

If you have mined two Fur or Bonus Grasslands, then not working one of them costs you two shields per turn. In only ten turns, that citizen would have given you those twenty shields without whipping. After eleven, you would be on plus for not whipping. Not counting the unhappiness and the gold/research. I prefer to whip in corrupt cities.

it gets a curragh out quick...which some ppl seem to be neglecting in their openings to get a granary up asap...with England...on a Archi/80% water map...

Sure it would be nice to get a Curragh out, too.

The first priority must be to control our island. If it is small, we should build Settlers and a Curragh and only then a Granary. But it looks biggish. Chances are, that there's another Civ on it, and there will be a run for the limited space. Also, Barbarians will attack us.

That leaves us with two approaches: either crank out Settlers and Warriors, and attack the neighbour only when there's no space left, or build Curraghs, get the first-tier technologies, build troops and take all your cities from the neighbour. It seems many of us prefer the first one.

My current thinking, inspired by Hannabir and Klarius, is to build Worker, Warrior, Granary, Settler, Warrior, Settler, Warrior etc. First irrigate Cattle, then chop forests in tandem. I want that early Warrior. In 2850 it might come too late. And it costs me only one turn.

3750 Worker
3500 Warrior
3050 Granary (with whip it could be 3200 BC)
2900 Settler

If we have no shortage of Warriors, the second city might build a Curragh or two.

 

[Kuningas]

3750 Worker
3500 Warrior
3050 Granary (with whip it could be 3200 BC)
2900 Settler

How you get worker in 5 turns?

 

[Più Freddo]

How you get worker in 5 turns?

Oops! That's what you have for using Excel.

Back to the drawing table. Thanks & sorry.

 

[pindicator]

How you get worker in 5 turns?

Yeah, quickest you could get the first worker out would be 3700BC. Might be better to go warrior-worker.

 

[Paul#42]

Using the whip with so much production feels strange...

population should be the limiting factor, not shields.
Except for a short time after a bigger building. But even this should end after a 3-turn-settler and / or a couple of 1-turn-workers...

 

[Più Freddo]

Yeah, quickest you could get the first worker out would be 3700BC. Might be better to go warrior-worker.

That right. With five forest cuts I now have:

/year/turn/accumulated shields/produce/

3750 BC 5 10 Warrior
3600 BC 8 10 Worker
3050 BC 19 62 Granary
2900 BC 22 31 Settler
2800 BC 24 11 Warrior
2670 BC 27 30 Settler
2550 BC 30 15 Curragh
2430 BC 33 31 Settler

Eventually, we can be a somewhat wasteful (32+38 shields) six-turn Swordsman -- Settler factory at size 5-7.

 

[klarius]

In the light of the predator handicap, I thought a bit about alternatives.
Nevertheless warrior first is always the best, everything else wastes shields.
I'm currently thinking along the lines of warrior-curragh-granary or even warrior-2*curragh-granary.

I cannot find a benefit of a worker before granary.
If you want an early second worker, warrior-granary-worker is still better for production and commerce.

If there should be an awesome position for a second town, warrior-settler-granary is also a possibility.

 

[pindicator]

That right. With five forest cuts I now have:

I take it you are assuming that 2SE of the city is a forest. My fog seeking skills are not nearly that strong

Eventually, we can be a somewhat wasteful (32+38 shields) six-turn Swordsman -- Settler factory at size 5-7.

Haha, that is eventually. That's after chopping all the forests, mining all the furs and BGs, and mining one of the hills to boot. Might not happen til we get iron hooked up anyway!

 

[Hannabir]

Way before the eventually, you are in Republic, and growing in 2 turns instead of 3.

I cannot find a benefit of a worker before granary.
If you want an early second worker, warrior-granary-worker is still better for production and commerce.

I can only say: do the math!

 

[MeteorPunch]

I can only say: do the math!

I think you're right. With a second worker you could quickly chop the forests and build a granary. This would make it pay off.

 

[klarius]

I can only say: do the math!

Well, I did.
In 2950 I get the first settler with worker after granary. At that time the commerce is about the same (within 1-2gp either direction depending on actual sequence).
The settler one turn earlier and the capital one turn ahead in growth is worth quite a bit gold over time.
I'm missing some roads at that time, but these tiles can anyways not be worked immediately after the settler. From then on the work force is ahead.

 

[eldar]

There are too many different possibilities! I had a warrior->barracks->settler sequence worked out, 'cause (a) I'm paranoid about us having a "friend" next door; (b) if we don't, then a granary isn't as important.

 

[zigurat]

this is my first COTM/GOTM so i'd like to ask for some advice; keep in mind i'll be playing conquest class

all the plans i've seen so far involve getting a granary early. in everyone's opinion, is this still worthwhile even if the island can only support 3/4 cities and the furs are the only lux we have (happiness probs for london at size 5+)?

also, assuming that we are on a fairly-sized island - from what i've worked out, with a chop & a whip a granary can be built in 3300BC (after warrior in 3750) and still get a settler out in 2950BC when London grows to size 4. after this the 6-turn settler factory is set up, London doesn't get to size 4 for a good while (until we stop producing settlers), so happiness is not a problem. so what is downside of whipping to get the granary out a few turns earlier aside from losing a few beakers because of the tiles that must be worked to get the settler out in 6 turns?

thanks in advance for the feedback

 

[klarius]

You will have created less commerce in the meantime.
Second downside is that you will have difficulties to slot in additional forest chops w/o waste. But you want to cut at least 2 of the three furs to get 2s2f2g tiles after mining.

 

[DaveMcW]

1. Always build a granary in your capital if you have 2+ bonus grassland.
2. Pop rushing in your capital is usually a bad idea. Build workers if your population is growing too fast.

 

[zigurat]

Second downside is that you will have difficulties to slot in additional forest chops w/o waste.

so at what point in your build cycle will you chop the 2nd forest, and how will you avoid wasting any of those shields? i don't see how you can fit in the 2nd chop while popping out settlers every 6 turns unless a) you get London above size 4 before chopping or b) you're happy with London going back to size 1. am i wrong on this?

 

[klarius]

The second forest chop goes into the granary by not building any roads and working a furs forest for 4 turns.
This gives the granary at the same turn as with the pop-rush,
misses the one gpt from the road, but the additional pop point works a 2g tile 7 out of 10 turns.