COTM 25 Pre-Game Discussion

[eldar]

Lose the river, gain the Cow. Now, where to settle? Lose BG and gain instant bovine goodness? Settle NE for delayed cow but quicker irrigation of it? And what to build? As Klarius points out, Granary->Worker is very do-able as we can start a prebuild right away with the Pyramids. We lose scouting, though, and I'd like to know what's around me - 2nd city and all that.

 

[AVN]

I'm going to give it a try (would be my first COTM).

Goal : Fast domination

Research : Pottery -> Alphabet -> Writing -> Code of Laws -> Philosophy or
Pottery -> Iron Working -> Alphabet -> Writing -> Code of Laws -> Philosophy. Haven't decided yet what's best.

Will use the cow for a 6-turn settler factory.

Hope to find several neighbours quite fast, but overall I'm not too optimistic about that. 40% land is a lot.

 

[eldar]

Research: Alpha->Writing->CoL->Phil, as Pottery is common as muck (normally expect at least 3 adverseries to start with it... particularly expansionist ones, who we'll meet v.quickly) and we have a good trade tech in Masonry.

 

[Htadus]

Does wet and temperate mean more rivers?

Ring placement is still the best solution for cities. Since we can not do any thing about the rank corruption, might as well use the distance advantage.

 

[eldar]

Perfect ring placement is pointless for C3C. The big advantage of the corruption model - no more daft city placements just to give you a perfect 4-ring or whatever.

 

[Marsden]

Wet doesn't actually increase the amount of rivers, it reduces the amount of desert. Would settling in place still count as on the river and not require the aquaduct, I'm not sure. I think I will settle in place, an have the 2nd and 3rd cities use the wines and cow and whatever else is around out of sight.

 

[eldar]

Settling in place does counts as on a river (a way to check - right-click on an empty tile, and see if it generates 1 gold - if it does, it's on the river).
However settling in place will stunt growth until the second city can get to the cow.

 

[Htadus]

..... With so much commerce and the Sling-Shot, we'd soon be in Republic with five food units per turn from the Cattle tile.

Why would you go for Republic gov? Wouldn't Monarchy be better? Is this a newby question?

 

[Più Freddo]

Why would you go for Republic gov? Wouldn't Monarchy be better?

I personally prefer Republic because (i) I don't need any military police (three of them) in each city and (ii) it produces lots of money which more than covers the maintenance costs for a large military force and allows me to ruch improvements all over the place.

Regarding MP with Persia -- what, keep Warriors unupgraded!? Are you kidding!?

War weariness can usually be kept in bounds through means such as totally destroying your enemies one by one before it sets in or provoking the enemy to declare on you.

Connecting luxuries counts directly towards more money since the entertainment slider can be pulled lower. Don't be afraid to pull it up to 30%, 40%, 50% if you have to, but get those luxuries connected. Having many cities also helps keep troop maintenance costs down.

So military conquest certainly combines just fine with Republic government.

Others might prefer Monarchy. Especially where research is limited somehow or the Golden Age must start very early, Monarchy can be researched much faster than The Republic. For example, in the latest quick game, the advantages of Monarchy were demonstrated. The Republic was out of reach, and those who stayed in Despotism lost. I suppose if you have to fight very long wars, Monarchy will also postpone war weariness somewhat compared to Republic.

 

[klarius]

Republic is always better in the long run. But in this special game it's doubtful.
With the combo factory in the capital you will have a large military when you get the slingshot.
It may not be feasible to revolt to republic right away, unless you disband warriors, which is not really what you want with Persia .
If you're going for a quick victory, the game may well be over before republic gives a benefit.
On the other side a better government to get out of despotism penalty and run the capital as 4-turner would be really nice. So monarchy is really an option here, if one can get it at a decent time.

 

[Più Freddo]

Republic is always better in the long run.

Yes, but for that you need to have a long run. As you point out.

With the combo factory in the capital you will have a large military when you get the slingshot.

That's a very good point.

It may not be feasible to revolt to republic right away, unless you disband warriors, which is not really what you want with Persia

I want to upgrade them and bring them to the front. What will you use as MP in Despotism or Monarchy?

 

[Più Freddo]

On the other side a better government to get out of despotism penalty and run the capital as 4-turner would be really nice. So monarchy is really an option here, if one can get it at a decent time.

For this you might then consider building that first Warrior after all so you can be sure to trade for Ceremonial Burial and Mysticism while researching (Pottery and) Writing.

 

[klarius]

I want to upgrade them and bring them to the front. What will you use as MP in Despotism or Monarchy?

It's not mandatory to have MP everywhere.
Just use it in some cities, so all are on equal footing for the need of lux tax. Dedicated MP everywhere is no benefit, because we will pay maintenance for military even in monarchy (at least for quite some time).

 

[bluebox]

Settling NE because of the cow seems to be the best way to start this game. Early growth is very important. However, it feels a bit "wrong" not to settle next to a river.

Going for Monarchy because of unit support and WW would be a good choice if you are going for domination or conquest. You will be going to fight early and for a long time. A large military can seriously hurt an early Republic in terms of unit support.

For 100k going for Republic would be better because of the gold to rush improvements. You will be playing the game long enough to profit from the benefits of Republic "in the long run," as klarius said.

Another option for 100k would be to change from Monarchy to Republic later, but that brings in a Anarchy phase at a time when you will already have a high number of cities, that means Anarchy could be quite long, 6 - 8 turns. I don't think it's a good idea.

 

[eldar]

Doing despot->monarchy-republic is only really feasible if you're religious (I did this in the Arabia COTM; I had the choice of Republic or Monarchy come slingshot time, and went for the latter initially; built my Ansars, revolted again, then kicked off).

For any other civs... nah, don't think so.

As for not upgrading MP warriors - well if they're only going to be MPs, why waste the gold on upgrading them? I'll be looking for a dedicated spot to build barracks->warrior->... and nothing else.

We do have iron close by, don't we...?

(Persian OCCC on a tiny pangaea is my favourite variant by the way... )

 

[Più Freddo]

As for not upgrading MP warriors

No one suggested upgrading them as long as they stay as MP. A difference between Monarchy and Republic is that the Warriors you keep as MP in Monarchy would be upgraded to Immortals and fighting at the front in Republic.

 

[eldar]

Well as I won't be going Republic anyway....

I'll state here and now that I'll be going for Space in this game. Early libraries, relatively light military until my core infra can support it, and looking to kick off my GA early-mid MA. If there are horses, all the better. If not, well, my MedInf will cost me 30 shields as opposed to the 36 my opponents will be paying for the same units

 

[Più Freddo]

Well as I won't be going Republic anyway.

I'll go for a sling-shot and see which one fits better when the time comes. I'll also look who's around before deciding whether to research Pottery myself or rely on trading it before approximately 3000 BC when the Granary is finished. The expansionists for example will find us soon and they have it.

 

[Urederra]

NOOB QUESTION.

Can it be played on mac Civ III complete?

 

[PaperBeetle]

I'll also look who's around before deciding whether to research Pottery myself or rely on trading it before approximately 3000 BC when the Granary is finished.

That's a pretty early granary. Are you using the whip?
My initial thought after you guys came up with the Immortal Combo Factory was to use an early worker to help get all that mining done...

It gives eight settler combos by the end of the QSC. But if we don't have any iron handy, is it feasible to do 3 axes for every settler, or does that send us bankrupt?