COTM56 - Spoiler #2

[civ_steve]

COTM 56 Spoiler2: End of the Middle Ages

Reading Requirements:

1. Must be able to research an Industrial Age Technology.
2. Must have contact with all remaining civs and full knowledge of the map.

Posting restrictions

1. No maps showing Industrial or Modern resources.
2. No discussion of Industrial Age (or later).
3. Absolutely NO discussion of any other active 'X'OTM Contest

There was a "little" surprise about the map that might cause some problems for early conquest games - did you have any problems finding the last civ? How is your game going overall?

 

[eldar]

Continuing the theme of many 20K attempts from the first spoiler, here's my progress towards the goal in the Middle Ages (skipping the gory details of war and expansion):

I entered the MA in 490BC (completing the Pyramids on the same turn), getting Monotheism(yay!) from the Russians. The Germans got Feudalism when gifted and were quite unprepared to trade it for anything.

At the other end, quite conveniently I entered the Industrial Age in 1000AD.

Between these two dates, I built:
350BC Cathedral
230BC Colosseum
230AD Sistine Chapel
320AD Statue of Zeus (thank you for the Ivory, Joan!) - kicked off my GA
380AD University
500AD Shakespeare's Theater
560AD Heroic Epic
680AD Copernicus's Observatory
850AD JS Bach's Cathedral
1000AD Newton's University

Here I dropped the ball, I feel. Shake's wouldn't have come any earlier, maybe a turn or two, but I still had turns left when I researched FA. So I could've stopped research for a few turns to get cash to rush some or all of the Cathedral/Colosseum/University. That may have shaved 2-3 turns off my final date.

At 1000AD, Tenochtitlan was producing 86cpt with a total of 7312 culture.

 

[DWetzel]

Hmm. This may be the least helpful second spoiler ever, at least until I get home tonight and edit in useful dates and stuff. I think I probably lost a little bit of ground to eldar in the middle ages (no surprise thanks to the GA), though not a lot. No chance at SoZ didn't help matters any for me, since France built it about 800 years before Eldar's date.

I chose not to gift up the two scientific civs (why? I don't know), and researched the top of the tech tree myself with a stop off for Music Theory. Culture builds were, in order, (if I remember right) Great Library, Cathedral (mostly purchased), Sistine Chapel, Heroic Epic (300 AD-ish, I think?), University (partly purchased; may have been before the Epic, not sure), JS Bach's, Shakespeare's, and then Newton's. No Copernicus' yet, but it was coming. I'll have to check, but the Pentagon (leader-rushed) may have snuck in there right before the age change as well.

Had four (yes, count 'em) four wars with the Mayans in all, as they kept trying to sneak attack me, and thrice gave the "declare" choice to "leave or declare". No peace lasted more than 4-5 turns at most. The fourth war was my signal to wipe them off the map.

 

[Spoonwood]

I have a feeling you didn't lose much, *if any* ground to Eldar in the middle ages DWetzel. You had Museum of Mausollos and Hanging Gardens. I thought he would have picked those up in the middle ages, but if he gave a complete report here, he didn't. That's 2 cpt, 5 cpt, then 7 cpt, and finally 10 cpt which he doesn't have. An earlier Shakespeare's Theater can't make that up by itself or really in tandem with faster builds on the medieval wonders, and from your report, you had the Heroic Epic earlier DWetzel. You may not have had the Statue of Zeus, but his didn't double until 1320 AD, so I don't think that's too big of a big deal. You had an earlier colosseum... his earlier cathedral might make those two *about* even. Newton's before Cope's also sounds like a better move for you in this one. We will see.

 

[eldar]

I could've got the Mausoleum - in hindsight, I should've gone for that right after the Library, not the Pyramids. The HG got lost before I'd even picked up Monarchy. No chance there unfortunately. There were 26 additional turns from the HE though (but at the same time-ish as my fortunate SoZ). Dunno. I just didn't feel too good about not being able to rush anything.

 

[Spoonwood]

Do you mean trying to go Museum of Mausollos-Pyramids as an attemp to get both and not lose The Pyramids in a cascade Eldar?

 

[eldar]

I was never in danger of losing the Mausoleum, I was first to Philo by a long long way. What happened was, the Mausoleum went in the Pyramids cascade (or maybe the ToA cascade, either way, one or the other). I'd certainly have got it if I'd built it. I'd have lost the Pyramids though in all probability (and this would've knocked my Cathedral and Sistine dates back by a dozen turns).

Problem is, by the time I got Lit, and could switch from Pyramids->GLib, Poly was out there so anyone building the Pyramids had a switch anyway. There was no sense in keeping the Pyramids going.

[Edit]
Put it this way: from 490BC to 1000AD, a total of 107 turns, I went from 27cpt to 86cpt, i.e. +59cpt in 107 turns, that's just under +0.5cpt. I'd have liked to have been pushing 100cpt by 1000AD.

 

[Racinante]

Middle Ages: 590 BC - 1170 AD
Predator Start

Heading for a Conquest Victory - Cities
590 BC: Destroy Hamburg, Peace Treaty gain 2 workers & Frankfort
350 BC: War with England
310 BC: London
250 BC: Nottingham
110 BC: York
90 BC: Peace with England, gain Hastings, Warwick, & Newcastle.
390 AD: War with Germany
400 AD: Heidelburg, Nuremburg
430 AD: Munich
480 AD: Konigsberg
620 AD: Berlin
680 AD: Leipzig (Germany eliminated)
690 AD: War with England, Oxford
710 AD: Coventry (England eliminated)
730 AD: Mayan invitation to war on Incas, gain 13 gpt + 1 g
780 AD: Ica
790 AD: Huamanga - MGL (Knight Army)
800 AD: Vitcos
830 AD: Corihuayrachina, France declares war on me
840 AD: Lose Munich to France
850 AD: Peace with Inca, gain 15 gp, Araquipa (on an island half-way around the world with yellow borders NE) and Vilcabamba
880 AD: Take Munich (with jag vs wounded AC to trigger GA), Lose Munich (and the one jag)
890 AD: Retake Munich
900 AD: Tours, Lose Huamanga via culture
920 AD: Besancon
930 AD: Avignon
950 AD: Orleans, Paris
960 AD: Lyons, Marseilles
970 AD: Rheims, Rouen
980 AD: Chartres (France eliminated)
1040 AD: War with Spain, Zaragoza, Murcia
1050 AD: Pamplona, Barcelona
1060 AD: Santiago, Salamanca, Seville
1070 AD: Lose Vitcos via culture
1090 AD: Madrid, Valencia
1100 AD: Toledo - MGL (Spain, eliminated)
1110 AD: War with Mongols, Hovd, Mandalgovi
1120 AD: Ulaanbaatar
1130 AD: Tabriz, Karakorum
1150 AD: Kazan, Almarik
1160 AD: Ta-tu, Peace with Mongols gaining island city of Dalandzadgad leaving Mongols with one city

Techs and Trades
590 BC: Give Lit to England for 62 gp
550 BC: Meet France, sell Writing for 65 gp
510 BC: Give Lit to Russians for 48, Americans for 47
450 BC: Give Lit to Germans for 65
270 BC: Meet Spain, Complete Feudalism, draw 2 turn anarchy.
230 BC: Portugal demands Feudalism - rebuffed
210 BC: Portugal order to leave or else, they leave
110 BC: Trade Monarcy + 21 g to Russia for Republic
70 AD: Monotheism, trade to Germany for Engineering, 3 gpt, 17 g
90 AD: Embassies in Spain, Portugal (Germany established one earlier)
??? AD: Complete Chivalry
250 AD: Complete Sun Tzu's
290 AD: Atzcapotzalco founded near horses
350 AD: Invention
470 AD: Portugal demands Chivalry - granted (they have no horses connected)
650 AD: Education
710 AD: Establish Embassies will all but one unknown
770 AD: Chemistry
860 AD: Metallurgy, trade Chemistry to Portugal for Banking and 11 gpt, trade saltpeter to Portugal for 22 gpt
880 AD: Start GA
920 AD: Military Tradition
960 AD: Astronomy
990 AD: Meet the Dutch and build embassy
1000 AD: Trade silk to Portugal for 11 gpt
1050 AD: Economics
1070 AD: Portugal demands furs - granted
1080 AD: Give Americans 490 gp for Music Theory, GA ends
1110 AD: Magnetism
1160 AD: RoP with Russia, time to explore and see if there is a land bridge to the Dutch - Araquipa is on a small island to south of Dutch land
1170 AD: Theory of Gravity, leaving Middle Ages.

See you in the final spoiler.

 

[DWetzel]

Alrighty, now I'm home. Pretty good memory for the most part. Wasn't sure about the Pentagon timing, but I did bring that one in as well with an MGL.

Your middle ages culture builds, courtesy of CivAssist 2:

490 BC: Colosseum
190 BC: Great Library
90 BC: Cathedral (I was having cash flow issues)
310 AD: Sistine Chapel
390 AD: Heroic Epic
440 AD: University (still having cash flow issues)
670 AD: JS Bach's
840 AD: Shakespeare's Theatre
850 AD: The Pentagon (MGL rush)
990 AD: Newton's University

I entered the industrial ages in 1030 AD, with Copernicus' Observatory under construction. My 1010 AD CivAssist 2 file shows the capital at 7569 culture, and 97 cpt. Of what's left, the Epic, University, and Sistine Chapel will have some useful double-culture time left. I will be finished before Bach's doubles, I think.

Research went pretty well; traded for Engineering (Russia), Feudalism (Great Library--Germany/France; Germany hit MA and got Feudalism about 2 turns before I got Education, so I shut off research until they could trade), Invention (Maya, as part of a peace deal) and Chivalry and Gunpowder (France) whilst moseying through the top of the tech tree.

Had three more towns flip to me, from three different civs: Seattle, Munich, and Coriyaxsomethingorother (Inca). The Incan town had the nearby horse source, which I didn't otherwise have; the other two were full cities when they flipped.

I actually built a culture wonder outside the capital; Tlaxcala took Knights Templar. It beat having someone else get it, and it actually sort of helped a little, kinda. It's not like I was lacking for culture builds.

The Maya met their full demise in 730 AD. The Inca followed 5 turns later, in one of the shortest wars on record (20 years). The Mongols provided war happiness in 470 AD by sneak-attacking with an archer; we're still at war with them and will be for the rest of the game.

The only bad thing for me planning-wise was building the Epic before the University. This was a completely understandable move--they're the same culture, and I could rush the University with cash--but after the army win in 380 AD, with 1 turn left on either one, I took the Epic. My second leader came in in 420 AD; it could have rushed the Epic and saved a couple of turns. I doubt it'll matter much though.

 

[Spoonwood]

Hmmm... later than I would have thought for the Shake's for your game DWetzel. But... if you take the 20k position here, then it becomes rather clear that a good ancient age wonder rush (aided perhaps by an ultra-early GA and/or not having to put out a settler from the 20k site) matter more than an early Shake's... at least in general. Of course, doing both works out as better.

Doing some quick arithmetic Eldar lead you at 1000 AD 7312-7278, but you pulled withing 1 culture point of him in 1030 AD and would overtake him the next turn. How things change from then out comes as the question. More of the race to come... after this commercial break.

 

[eldar]

There's 11cpt more per turn though, so the lead will grow. Really there's not much left after that, so I'm not going to win this one!

 

[Spoonwood]

Well, DWetzel still had Cope's to go, so he had you there. But, you had some earlier medieval wonder double than him. Still, I think you're right here Eldar that DWetzel got you in this one. It looks like little can compensate for an *early* ancient age wonder rush. So, an ultra-early despotic GA actually maximizes shields in the 20k, since you get to the first wonder earlier, and then you'll get to the next batch of buildings earlier also.

 

[ignas]

Open, going for fast 20K culture in capital and nice Jason score

Middle Ages (900BC - 490 AD)

Culture buildings in capital before entering Industrial Age:

3950 Palace
1525 The Pyramids
1375 Temple
1075 The Oracle
1050 Library
800 The Great Library
775 Colosseum
670 Mausoleum of Mausollos
630 Cathedral
410 The Hanging Gardens
270 University
50 AD Shake's Theatre
170 AD The Statue of Zeus
270 AD Heroic Epic
380 AD Copernicus Observatory
490 AD Newton's University

 

[Spoonwood]

Nice Ignas, you might just beat Dwetzel there.

 

[ignas]

Sure, I should finish in 15XX AD.

 

[DWetzel]

Sure, I should finish in 15XX AD.

That's good work outta you. Told you I was learning something!

Question: does this work as well at relatively higher levels (call it Emperor-ish?), wher you might lose, say, Sistine and/or Bach's to a cascade?

 

[Spoonwood]

I doubt that would work on a Deity archipelago. I can't imagine it working on Sid. Demi-God, maybe, maybe not I think.