Counters List?

[smljohnson]

Given the many UUs in this game, sometimes it isn't always clear what to use to counter them. I asked not long ago about how to counter longbowmen and, rather than ask for each different unit that suddenly takes me to school, I'll ask if there is a comprehensive list out there somewhere that details the various units in the game and what unit best counters each.

Thanks!

 

[bestbrian]

Scissors cut paper, rock breaks scissors, and paper covers rock.

Actually, I don't think this list exists, but it wouldn't be a bad idea as an aid for new players. You might just be the guy to make that list.

The first counter is that Everything beats MY Gunships.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The reason there's no such list is that almost without exception, the counters to a UU are exactly the same as the default unit, the UU just tends to be a little better.

I can think of a FEW exceptions, such as the Janissary, which needs better tech or just using the musket itself on it (IE has no tech-parity counter, while default muskets lose to knights) or the quecha (well, axes counter them but are more "advanced", so a tech parity match would be a warrior ), but pretty much just use what you normally would.

 

[smljohnson]

Well, I'm not just curious about UUs. Essentially, some units do not specifically state that they receive a bonus against another type, so it is unclear what they are used for to counter. For example, what does one use to counter a SoD of macemen? Sure, you throw a seige at it to weaken it, but what is the preferred unit. I think there really needs to be a list for this somewhere. It's amazing that there isn't one.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well, I'm not just curious about UUs. Essentially, some units do not specifically state that they receive a bonus against another type, so it is unclear what they are used for to counter. For example, what does one use to counter a SoD of macemen? Sure, you throw a seige at it to weaken it, but what is the preferred unit. I think there really needs to be a list for this somewhere. It's amazing that there isn't one.

Warrior - anything
Archer - UU's, otherwise just units with CR
Spear - axe, xbow
Axe - Er...axe. Horse archers will win this once you have them, same with xbows. Chariot (Thanks mirth! Total brain fart here on my part!)
Sword - Axe. xbow
Horse Archer - Spear, elephant
Catapult - Horse archer or anything that manages to attack it
Elephant - Spear.
Longbow - Siege basically
Xbow - Horse archer/knight
Pike - axe/mace/xbow
Treb - knight
Mace - Xbow
Knight - Pike

Musket - Knight (muskets beat everything other than knights from earlier eras)
Cuirasser - pike, rifle
Cannon - cuirasser/cavalry
Grenadier - Cuirasser/cavalry
Cavalry - rifle
Rifle - grenadier

Infantry - Machine gun (only defends), will dominate anything earlier. This makes infantry one of the most powerful military break points in the game. Tanks beat them finally.

From here it gets a bit more complicated with air and naval combat. Marines aren't great on land (they lose with equal promos to infantry, and don't particularly beat anything else) but can dominate amphibious strikes. Fighters are only countered by things with interceptions - air superiority owns pretty hard. Nukes before SDI will of course beat any stack of anything easily, etc etc. Counters break down a lot here - but do mind the obvious ones like gunships vs tanks and infantry vs marines/paratrooper, and remember SAMs and now MG's both have interception chances on land (at sea, destroyers can intercept).

Also note that although the suggested counter units often work best, any unit with a higher strength that isn't countered will win too. This means, for example, that war elephants will easily beat longbows after collateral damage, but this is not the conventional approach oftentimes. If it gives you the best odds, use it though.

 

[mirthadir]

A few minor additions TMIT's goodies:

The ax counter is chariot. (Does not work against phalanx; against dog soliders OTOH chariots are FAR superior to axes for counter work.)

Spear really doesn't counter phant, particularly shockphants. Unless you can get formation, I believe the counter to shockphants is CII phants, pults/LBs in the open if you lack ivory (or you face B phants against the Kmer; yes this sucks, but suicide units are required until you pillage/capture the ivory), and LBs for defense. By and large if the enemy has phants, don't fight in the field (my almost universal rule) if you don't have phants and if you get early construction and HBR (I suggest in that order so you can stockpile suicidapults) shockphants can own anything prior to LBs.

Marines beat artillery and MG. If the enemy has hordes of infantry (which is common) then your city defense should be a few drill marines (possibly with charge? or whatever the anti-siege upgrade is) and plenty of MGs. You want the actual Artillery attack to fail early (so you can heal back faster) and not to wear down your collateral proof MGs (if the AI has enough seige you literally want to skip out on AT units and just stockpile ambush MGs). If the enemy has MGs defending cities, you will find that a few Marines will be helpful to maximize conquest rate with fewer cannon losses (assuming an infantry/cannon base force and you can't just blitz them with tanks).

 

[DanF5771]

Marines beat artillery and MG. If the enemy has hordes of infantry (which is common) then your city defense should be a few drill marines (possibly with charge? or whatever the anti-siege upgrade is) and plenty of MGs. You want the actual Artillery attack to fail early (so you can heal back faster) and not to wear down your collateral proof MGs (if the AI has enough seige you literally want to skip out on AT units and just stockpile ambush MGs).

Marines get their counter bonus of 50% against Artillery and MGs only when they attack. I was wondering whether it would thus be a better idea to have Drill promoted Tanks handle the early AI's Artillery, cultural city defense will be removed anyway and the better strength of the Tanks would compensate the loss of the Marines' fortification bonus. Tanks are then much more useful for counter attacks compared to Marines. In spite of their higher strength Tanks suffer the same amounts of collateral damage from Artillery as Marines unfortunately (8|6|4|3 HPs for Drill 1|2|3|4; Arty without Barrage). Hence, Marines might be better for cities on hills (plus they don't require Oil).

 

[ParadigmShifter]

You can sometimes overwhelm infantry with cavalry, once the AI upgrades rifles to infantry they are the only thing that stand a chance until you get tanks or infantry yourself. So cavalry have a bit of a low point when rifles become the norm but have a late Indian summer as it were.

 

[Levgre]

War Elephants with shock are also a good counter to macemen. Your x-bow men won't counter macemen well on the offense attacking, since other units will defend against your x-bows. X-bows are obviously very good stack defenders against macemen, or good if the attacker has quite a large portion of melee in their stack.

And shock Elephants do well against spears also... although they are countered by pike.


So the best way to counter a SoD with a good amount of scary macemen would be a combination of War Elephants and X-bow men, having more Ellies if they have less spears, and having more x-bow men if they have less horses/elephants/longbowmen/catapults (catapults actually defend okay against x-bowmen... although winning 70% against them isn't bad of course, but elephants would do better).

 

[oyzar]

Use chariots to counter axes, but beware of spears... Counters to praets: agressive axes, normal axes(need alot more than he have praets), numedians(good) or dog soldiers(good). Counter to impis and holkans and jaguars are axes, but obviously hooking up copper might be a problem against those so you better be fast. Archers in cities can defend well enough against normal chariots but against war chariots or immortals you will need spears. Dog soldiers can't effectively be countered by axes, however as they are often unsuported by spears chariots can counter them just fine(but again you need to be FAST), normal archers can also defend against them in cities just like vs chariots. berserker/samurai/cho-no-ku/balista elephant have the same counter as normal but obviously somewhat less effective(x-bows/x-bows/HAs(or better knights)/spears(or other elephants)). There is an UU guide though, i recomend reading that. Once you understand the basic combat mechanics it should be easy to see what units counters what...

 

[vicawoo]

Warrior - anything
Archer - UU's, otherwise just units with CR
Spear - axe, xbow
Axe - Er...axe. Horse archers will win this once you have them, same with xbows. Chariot (Thanks mirth! Total brain fart here on my part!)
Sword - Axe. xbow
Horse Archer - Spear, elephant
Catapult - Horse archer or anything that manages to attack it
Elephant - Spear.
Longbow - Siege basically
Xbow - Horse archer/knight
Pike - axe/mace/xbow
Treb - knight
Mace - Xbow
Knight - Pike

Musket - Knight (muskets beat everything other than knights from earlier eras)
Cuirasser - pike, rifle
Cannon - cuirasser/cavalry
Grenadier - Cuirasser/cavalry
Cavalry - rifle
Rifle - grenadier

Infantry - Machine gun (only defends), will dominate anything earlier. This makes infantry one of the most powerful military break points in the game. Tanks beat them finally.

From here it gets a bit more complicated with air and naval combat. Marines aren't great on land (they lose with equal promos to infantry, and don't particularly beat anything else) but can dominate amphibious strikes. Fighters are only countered by things with interceptions - air superiority owns pretty hard. Nukes before SDI will of course beat any stack of anything easily, etc etc. Counters break down a lot here - but do mind the obvious ones like gunships vs tanks and infantry vs marines/paratrooper, and remember SAMs and now MG's both have interception chances on land (at sea, destroyers can intercept).

Also note that although the suggested counter units often work best, any unit with a higher strength that isn't countered will win too. This means, for example, that war elephants will easily beat longbows after collateral damage, but this is not the conventional approach oftentimes. If it gives you the best odds, use it though.

additional comments

Archers: in cities, cr axes are even. Swords.
axes: in the open field and a pinch, catapults defend well. And if you ever attacked hwachas on open ground, you know how nasty they are
Horse archers: on defense, swords are even.
elephants: 2 spears
longbows: in cities, catapults and cr mace are about even. trebs counter. Out of cities, knights.
catapults: horse archers, your own catapults, high drill 6+ strength units (to deal with collateral damage of backup units)
trebs: horse archers do ok too
mace: knights do well out of cities

 

[mirthadir]

Marines get their counter bonus of 50% against Artillery and MGs only when they attack. I was wondering whether it would thus be a better idea to have Drill promoted Tanks handle the early AI's Artillery, cultural city defense will be removed anyway and the better strength of the Tanks would compensate the loss of the Marines' fortification bonus. Tanks are then much more useful for counter attacks compared to Marines. In spite of their higher strength Tanks suffer the same amounts of collateral damage from Artillery as Marines unfortunately (8|6|4|3 HPs for Drill 1|2|3|4; Arty without Barrage). Hence, Marines might be better for cities on hills (plus they don't require Oil).

The problem with using tanks on defense is that they are more likely to be drawn as stack defenders after the initial volley for units other than arty. When dealing with multiple SoDs or late game AI coalitions you want your arty defense to heal in at most two turns, not to be barely alive having been drawn once too many times because its high base defense makes it "stronger" than the collateral proof MGs/cheap infantry you have there to soak up the lesser units.

 

[Feyaria]

Rifleman counter grenadiers, as grenadiers only get +50% attack against rifles. So whatever unit attacks first, wins.