Cradles of Civilization

[Absolution]

One of the things in the game that are clearly against the history is the starting locations in random maps.
Each civilization starts in its own niche, and it take thousands of years until civilizations realy border each other.
To make it more historically correct, and to make the early ages much more interesting, I suggest that in every maps a few areas will be the Cradles of Civilizations in which most of the civilizations start, and the rest will stay empty (at the begining).
Most of the civilizations will start at the cradles, and a few will be quite isolated.
For example, in a 11 civilizations game, 5 will start in the big cradle, 3 in another cradle, and the rest will start in empty areas, or even in an isolated landmass.
The cradles will be the most fertile areas on the planet (logical reasons).
If there is a possibility, in bigger maps, it will be nice to locate the cradles in a places wich are quite fertile but are in the middle of a big desert or a tundra (historic reason).
The "borders" of a cradle in a hughe map for exmaple will be between the size of India in the earth map to the size of Australia (this is the size of the area where the 3-5 civilizations start).
Of course civilizations will expand out of the cradle, but it will create a massivly more interesting ancient world diplomacy, which almost does not exist in the game.

A nice idea for a custom game option is to make the civilization in each cradle be chosen according to their ethnic defenition.
For example, Sumeria, Arabia and Egypt will more likely start together in the same cradle. Germany, Vikings and France will too. Aztecs, Mayans and Incans. Khmer, Momgols and Koreans.
Around 4-5 groups like that can be decided.
Civilizations which does not fit any category will more likely start isolated: Sioux, Zulu, India..
But that's only a possibility. I think the Cradle of Civilizations must be presented in the game in someway.

 

[Skidizzle]

There is an unintended side effect to your proposal for the civs not in the cradles.

I recently played an odyssey length game as Korea on the full Earth map with all the civs random. My closest neighbor was Sumeria... So I had all of Asia as my backyard. Which sounds awesome until I tell you that I had raging barbs on too.. So I was basically confined to two cities with hordes of bowman/warriors until i could tear through the tech tree and build the Great Wall.

My argument being that the AI would get gang banged under those circumstances.

 

[Absolution]

That's how it should be.
Isolated civs would have to improve their defence from barbarians, what would make them maybe less advanced. If you want, a game based on cradles without isolated civilizations will be good as well.
An isolated civ might have to deal with babarians, but this is history.
That's not a problem. That's a good thing. Not everyone starts equal in the world.
It's like the Mongolians in the earth 18 civs, or the Aztecs maybe..
The civs in the cradle will might have to build a well prepared amry as well, because when it is more crowded at the beginning, wars in the ancient times are extreamly more dangerous, and they can be a much bigger threat than the barbarians. Depends on your deplomacy and defence!
My main goal is that the wars in the ancient world will have an effect on the international balance of power. As it is now, in the ancient world no one has the availability to send a lot of units to enemy territory, because it is far away, and usually you end up dealing with your own growth until mid middle ages.
I also assume that a crowded ancient world will create more reasons for tensions. As it is now, there are almost no reasons except for the state religion to start a war in the ancient world. Wars between distant civilizations is not very efficient too..

Let's take an example on an earth map with 12 civs random locations: 5 civs can start in europe, 3 can start in north india and this whole area of Thailand, Burma Myanamar..
The other 3 - one in south africa, on in north east asia, one in north america, and one in south america.
So you would start in a cradle of course. The difference between the two cradles is not a problem.
It's like playing Continents map. When the time of caravels arrives, you can find out that the other continent is a bit more adavanced. Just a bad luck.
Civs starting in europe will also have an unequal future. Imagine the difference between a civilization starting in the spanish territory and a civilization which starts in the most eastern part of europe?
In the ancient times the eastern one will suffer from asian babarians, but in the future it will spread out to most of the north asian territories. Take a look on russia and spain through the middle ages - and today.
I'm sure that in the end, the civilization on the eastern territories won't always be more successful. Things can change. The crowded world will cause early wars which will change the "destiny" of each civ.
If you play Agressive AI - the classical area will be glorious to watch

If you like to chanllenge yourself, a good costum game option will be "Start Isolated".

 

[Xyth]

One of the things in the game that are clearly against the history is the starting locations in random maps.
Each civilization starts in its own niche, and it take thousands of years until civilizations realy border each other.
To make it more historically correct, and to make the early ages much more interesting, I suggest that in every maps a few areas will be the Cradles of Civilizations in which most of the civilizations start, and the rest will stay empty (at the begining).
Most of the civilizations will start at the cradles, and a few will be quite isolated.

Not opposed to the idea but it would be a LOT of work. Start location selection is handled differently for each maptype and also is interwoven with resource placement. Very impractical on several maptypes too. I'm not sure I want to undertake such a difficult project for something that would need to be optional and could create significant balance issues.

A nice idea for a custom game option is to make the civilization in each cradle be chosen according to their ethnic defenition.
For example, Sumeria, Arabia and Egypt will more likely start together in the same cradle. Germany, Vikings and France will too. Aztecs, Mayans and Incans. Khmer, Momgols and Koreans.
Around 4-5 groups like that can be decided.
Civilizations which does not fit any category will more likely start isolated: Sioux, Zulu, India..
But that's only a possibility. I think the Cradle of Civilizations must be presented in the game in someway.

This seems much more feasible and appropriate. It's not something I know how to code exactly but it should be possible in theory. I'll add it to the wish list.

 

[Keinpferd]

Good idea. Maybe the cradle idea should be taken to a more general creation and customization area of the forum, so this could become a cooperation between several modders or be picked up by a creator of just mod components of this size? (The only danger would be, that somebody picked it up and turned it into something SDK based.)

 

[Absolution]

The only maptypes which would fit the idiea perfectly are Terra and Continents.
There is not need for that in other kinds of maptyps.

 

[Xyth]

I've found a mod component which reassigns starting locations based on real Earth proximity of civilization capitals. i.e, civs that are near each other on Earth are more likely to appear near each other on a random map, thus creating some geographical/cultural grouping.

It contains a DLL but I think I should be able to separate the parts I need from it and hopefully get it in for 1.17 as an option for each mapscript. I'll give it a shot this weekend.

 

[Xyth]

Okay, I have successfully merged Culturally Linked Starts into 1.17 and have added it as an option to all mapscripts. It makes it more likely that your neighbouring civs are ones that would be near you on a real Earth map. So for example, if you're playing as India you can expect (if they're in the game) the Tamil, Kushan, and Tibetans to be somewhere near you, while the English, Zulu, and Aztec are more likely to be far away.

It's not perfect; it works off a coordinate system and it doesn't understand Earth's actual continental boundaries, so it's not uncommon to see, for example, North African civs mixed in with Southern European ones. But overall it works reasonably well and adds a little more historicity for those that want it.