Crazy Spatz's Alpha Centauri Mod

I like option B better, as it would put a player into a position where he would have to plan research branches in coordination with his military/happiness ambitions. Question: do you plan on scaling back the gold production in regards to your option B?

A bit, yes. Not too much change, because a fully developed city should have more or less the same bonuses and costs either way. I just hated how in the vanilla game, you had a grand total of three happiness buildings with tiny maintenance costs; build all three, and you were done with making a city self-sufficient, and everything beyond that was gravy (most notably the science and trade output). So by spreading the Happiness around across more buildings, it forces you to build more before a city is ready to go, which also encourages you to diversify a bit; even a "production" city would need a wider variety of constructions.

The main difference between the two options here is that A (the 4->3 change) would return more closely to the vanilla game's mechanics, where a conquered city can be ready to go with a minimal investment and so wouldn't slow down conquest. The B option takes the game even further in the other direction than it is now, where "assimilating" a conquered city takes a significant amount of time. This has a heavy economic component, in that you'd now be spending far more on building maintenance for a partially-developed city; the costs per building wouldn't be any different, but you'd need more buildings in place before a city could be considered self-sufficient. What previously could be done with three Happiness buildings now might take eight; sure, those eight all do other things as well, so you still come out ahead, but it costs more money.

The other economic things I'd be looking at:
> Removing the flat +2 from the Market and replacing it with +1 per cow, fish, or wheat (while this has the potential to be more than +2, it requires you to work the tiles, which becomes less common as the game progresses and you start shifting to a Specialist economy).
> Moving part of the gold output of the Mint to the Bank. So the Mint would be +2 per gold/silver instead of +3, but would get +1 happiness, while the Bank would get +1 gold per gold/silver/gems.
> I'm trying to rework the Planetary Transit System to have a much lower boost to trade route income (~10%) but reduce the maintenance cost of roads and railroads. Still working on that one, because route maintenance is a Policy thing.
> I still think that unit maintenance is too low, so I'll also be looking at ramping that up. The easiest way to do it would be to add a negative effect to the Palace, but I'm not sure how well that'll balance.

However, part of the bit about the new national wonders? With Hollywood, all Artists get +1G. (And with Wall Street, all Merchants get +1P, making them more desirable as well.) So you'd have a slightly increased cash flow there, but only if you use specialists instead of working tiles. And since Improvements have multiple tech yield increases in my mod, the chances are that that Artist gives you less gold than the tile you could have worked instead, so it'd actually lower income a bit on average.

Because I start my games in the Industrial Era, Iron doesn't have nearly as much significance as in an Ancient Era start, so making Iron a prerequisite for Tanks sounds like a very good idea from a Later Era starting perspective.

Good. And remember, the Stock Exchange now generates Iron, so by the time you get to Tanks you should have plenty on hand even if your empire started in an iron-poor area. And one of the reasons I wanted to do this, actually, was City-States. When you're considering C-S allies, part of their appeal is which resources they'll give you. What's the point of having an ally give you Iron if it stopped being useful a millenium earlier? Horses, at least, are useful for Cavalry, which are still useful as a unit well after iron units go obsolete.

With Tanks, I really just wanted to stop the mad explosion of power when you unlock them. Among other things, I'm thinking of switching the upgrade chains so that Cavalry upgrades to the Helicopter instead of to the Tank. (That's actually how I'd had it in my mod before the December patch made Cavalry upgradeable.) That way, once you unlock Tanks you're still starting fresh, with brand-new units with low XP, and that takes time to shift the balance of power. I'm still looking into the promotions on these; the biggest problem seems to be the "can move after attacking" promotion, which cavalry get but the later units don't.

My vote is "Exclusively for the Future Eras", cuz thats all I play.

Let's clarify: I'm talking about a half-dozen national wonders in the Industrial or Renaissance, and they wouldn't have a MaxStartEra setting. So even if you started in the Digital age instead of my recommended Industrial/Nuclear start, you'd still have these available to build, just like how you can build a Statue of Liberty and such for starts in those eras.

It's like the Combat Engineer; those unlock way back at Dynamite, and would really fit better into the Balance mod. But I had to keep them in the Content mod because otherwise I couldn't have them upgrade to the Labor Mech correctly. So they still feel synonymous with the future content, despite unlocking several eras earlier.

If I move these Wonders to the Balance mod, then there are some effects I just won't be able to tie to them. (Notably the resource creation, but also a few other things like the espionage would either require duplicating the Lua or finding some other method.) The question really is, for those people who only use one of my two mods and not the other, would it throw things off to have a few more of these sorts of "throwback" changes in the Content mod?
 
Add +1 happiness for the Garden. AI love to build Hanging Gardens.
Windmill only adds production, why not adding +1 food, like the Granary.
Leave the Mint as it is.. labor>mining>smelting in the early era's, happiness was a no-no.
Observatory.. browsing the atmosphere and beyond, adds science, nothing more.
The Monastry... +2 Culture each turn is a yes, just leave it as it is.

Windmill: I was actually thinking of having it be a combined Happiness/Food/Production setup. +1 happy, +1 food, +15% production on buildings. But the Watermill is already a mixed production/food thing, so I dropped the food part and boosted the production a bit more. (Besides, the idea of Dutch-style windmills adding happiness made a strange sort of sense.) But it's the least justifiable of the group.

Mint: If I intend to move part of the gold benefit to the Bank (which I do), then I need to reduce the Mint from 3 down to 2. The +1 was really meant to offset that. Frankly, the bigger concern for me with the Mint is that +3 gold per deposit is just too good; with the right type of start, you could have a huge economic advantage over the other empires. So toning that down was already high on my list of balance changes.

Observatory: First of all, in my mod this is already a combined research/culture building. So it's currently +20% research and +3 culture, instead of the simple +50% in the vanilla game; the thought was to change it to +1 happy, +1 culture, +20% research. But I could go either way on this one; I'm okay with two-function buildings, but three is pushing it a bit. And for the record, I'm an astronomer. Historically, observatories were a LOT more important than just browsing the skies, culturally speaking, because most astronomy was done either by nobles or by people they sponsored.

Monastery: I guess I wasn't clear. The Monastery has two separate Culture bonuses: a flat +3, and then an additional +2 per Wine or Incense. I'd leave the +2 alone, and replace the +3 with "+1 culture, +1 happiness" (which is exactly what I did to the Temple.) So it'd still add nearly as much culture as before; with two Wines nearby you'd have 5 instead of 7, for instance.
The other thing to consider is that I've added culture to other buildings in my mod; the Library, University, and Public School all had an extra +1 Culture. So toning down the pure +Culture buildings is something I've been doing already (see the Opera House and Museum), to keep the total amounts the same. As with the Mint, the large amount of Culture was something I'd already been concerned about and thought of changing even before this came up.

The real reason for picking those five, though, is that they're some of the very few buildings that require local terrain or resources; the Garden needs a lake or river, the Windmill needs you not to be on a hill, the Observatory needs a mountain, and the Mint and Monastery need local resources. I can safely add +1 happiness to these without worrying about any one city getting all five, because what are the chances that any one city would be able to qualify for more than three of these?
And I need to ensure that the average city has access to at least one of these, preferably two, to balance out the increased baseline unhappiness. So while we could say no to one or two of the five, I need at least three where the answer is Yes, or else the whole concept would need to be scrapped. So for now, it's looking like yes on the Garden, probably on the Monastery and Mint (with reductions in their other benefits), and probably not on the Observatory and Windmill (at least for now). I'll try that out and see how it plays over the weekend.

3> Both no.

It's going to be one or the other; these WILL be added. (They have to; I need to put the specialist boosts in, to offset the improvement tech yield increases. Also, there are so few Wonders in the Industrial and Nuclear Eras...) Besides, the whole point of the Balance mod is to make it so that a pure military strategy like you described, churning out units instead of buildings, simply won't pan out in the long term; it's in your best interests to develop your cities as well as possible, because when you then face an empire that DID develop its cities, you'll be at a huge disadvantage.

This is actually pretty common on higher difficulties, now that I've tweaked the flavor ratings; I just played a game where Greece had had time to develop its cities fully, and used the gold surplus and constant golden ages to bribe nearly every city-state to its side, and I nearly lost because of it despite controlling half the world. (The fact that the military AI is incompetent enough that you can easily win a war where you're majorly outgunned is a different issue.) Sure, on Prince or lower you don't need to worry, but I've stopped playing on anything less than King.
So these Wonders WOULD be worth building. It's just a question of which mod they'd fit better into, organizationally and practically.
 
Pointing out that i play as a 'military' doesn't mean i only output military units, i build too.
Cities need to have growth, production, happiness, income.

And for the record, I'm an astronomer. Historically, observatories were a LOT more important than just browsing the skies, culturally speaking, because most astronomy was done either by nobles or by people they sponsored.

First, was referring to the Observatory ingame.
Second, don't lecture me, thinking, i don't know about history.
I was going to add a third here, but i... sigh

it's in your best interests to develop your cities as well as possible, because when you then face an empire that DID develop its cities, you'll be at a huge disadvantage.

I rather have a small empire.

I just played a game where Greece had had time to develop its cities fully, and used the gold surplus and constant golden ages to bribe nearly every city-state to its side, and I nearly lost because of it despite controlling half the world.

When you play as tactical/strategic leader, you get more in return then having a culture/science based build.
Oh no, i just build 6 wonders and now AI declared war on me.
I'll just move my lonely unit to defend my cities, and hope for the best while i produce more units.

the whole point of the Balance mod is to make it so that a pure military strategy like you described, churning out units instead of buildings, simply won't pan out in the long term

Here CS, take my hard earned 1000g that i got after 100 turns of mining.
Would you give me some of your culture/resource/luxury and giving me an unit that i really need?
No, thank you.

Sure, on Prince or lower you don't need to worry, but I've stopped playing on anything less than King.

Does it make me a lesser leader or opponent if i play the game on Prince?
Would playing on Immortal make any difference on the decisions you make ingame?

It's going to be one or the other; these WILL be added.

I see no point of producing wonders in each era.
Am going to check the industrial era now, and see how it turns out.

Good luck with v19.

Signed,
OokeDan
 
Can you look into the requirements on the Pholus Mutagen wonder?

The civlopedia isn't very clear, atm it just seems I can't build it in my capital which has cows, iron, bananas, sugar, marble and horses near it.

I deep mined up some dilithium but I havn't reloaded so maybe it needs that to trigger being able to build it.

But it seems that any other city can build it, I checked one with no neutronium, dilithium, omnicytes within 3 tiles of it and it could build it so I don't know honestly.
 
Also, not sure if this is a bug with the base game (I suspect it is) that could be modded to a fix.

But I just had a gravship with 4 needlejets in a city I was burning (was only a small one) next turn after capture city burns down, my needlejets seem to have vanished.
 
I just won a transcendence victory, and didn't come out of anarchy afterwards.

I don't really play to win, I just play to play and do some arbitrary idea in my head so not getting to keep on chugging post transcendance kinda sucked :(

Otherwise really enjoying the mod, I'm not one for balance posting because tbh I just play low difficulties and build world spanning empires, but I'll keep an eye out for bugs.
 
The B option takes the game even further in the other direction than it is now, where "assimilating" a conquered city takes a significant amount of time.

Based on your previous comment I'm not seeing this:

1> I think city-based Unhappiness is just a bit too high. There are two options:
A: Lower the base city unhappiness from 4 down to 3
or
B: Leave it at 4 and add +1 Happiness to the several buildings I'd mentioned earlier (some combination of Garden, Mint, Monastery, Windmill, Observatory) while slightly reducing their other benefits to compensate

Or am I just misreading your intents? Anyways, I do like the overall B option of having more buildings available to build/ buy in order to speed up the game in a conquest endgame environment, in coordination with having to make associated decisions/ plans in regards to research options for the conquest agenda.

Let's clarify: I'm talking about a half-dozen national wonders in the Industrial or Renaissance, and they wouldn't have a MaxStartEra setting. So even if you started in the Digital age instead of my recommended Industrial/Nuclear start, you'd still have these available to build, just like how you can build a Statue of Liberty and such for starts in those eras.

My train of thought was that if you placed these Wonders in the past, then you'd have to take time in order to balance them correctly for those eras, which, because I start my games in the Industrial era, is a waste of time IMO. Or, to put it another way, that same time can be better spent working on the Industrial, Modern, and later eras that I care about to make them even better. Purely self-serving reply on my part, and thats why I couched it with a " :lol: " .

D
 
Can you look into the requirements on the Pholus Mutagen wonder?

Known issue. I'd wanted it to trigger if any Bonus resource was located near the city. "Bonus" resources, in the context of the game, means food resources; anything that isn't a Strategic and isn't a Luxury (look at the Resources page in the Civilopedia to see what I mean). There are six of these in-game: Cow, Wheat, Fish, Sheep, Deer, and Bananas. I also wanted Omnicytes to count as both Bonus and Strategic, so it adds to that too. So in the XML, it's using LocalResourcesOR with all 7 resources in question.

The problem is that I think the game can't handle more than 4 prerequisites for pretty much anything. (For some things, it's only 3.) If it's only going in order and taking the first 4, then that's Wheat, Fish, Deer, Omnicytes. So your cows and bananas wouldn't be counting as prerequisites, even though they should be.
So I think I'm going to have to trim it down to the more common ones (fish, cow, wheat) and Omnicytes. I've rearranged the list for the next version to put Cows up in the first four and move Deer out, but you'll still have problems regardless where a city that would get the bonus isn't seeing one.

The real question is, should I even bother with the prerequisites at all? I did that so that the AI wouldn't build it in a city that had no food resources nearby. But is the remote possibility that a high-production city wouldn't have any local food resources more crippling than the fact that I can't trigger off all seven of them?

For reference, the only other buildings that require local resources in my mod:
> The Centauri Preserve needs local Omnicytes, which is good since its main purpose is to boost the yield of Omnicyte tiles and nothing else. (See also: Mint, Monastery.)
> The Living Refinery (national wonder) needs local Omnicytes, Dilithium, or Neutronium, and boosts the city's outputs depending on which are present. It also consumes one unit of each. Ideally, you'd want all three present, but I didn't want to make it an AND because that almost never happens.

I deep mined up some dilithium but I havn't reloaded so maybe it needs that to trigger being able to build it.

Dilithium's not a Bonus resource, it's a combination Strategic and Luxury. Also, deep mining works instantly, no reloading needed, just like planting forests/jungles. (That's one of the things I like about it.)

But I just had a gravship with 4 needlejets in a city I was burning (was only a small one) next turn after capture city burns down, my needlejets seem to have vanished.

Sounds like the base game. The whole game really isn't carrier-friendly; it seems like they were added almost as an afterthought, given the balance issues involved. (You're nearly always better just basing the planes in a normal city.) That's why I gave Carriers the Medic promotion. But I'm not surprised to hear of something like this happening.

I just won a transcendence victory, and didn't come out of anarchy afterwards.

Whoops. Okay, I know what happened there. On the bright side, if you were to wait for another hundred turns you'd come out of anarchy just fine!

Basically, I cheated to create a pseudo-timer mechanism. The way I count off 20 turns for transcendence is to set the player to have 120 turns of anarchy, the game automatically reduces that by 1 per turn, and then I declare a winner if you ever have between 51 and 100 turns of anarchy remaining. (You also have to have the Project, of course.)
I needed to make sure the number was high enough that the player couldn't trigger the win any other way. Also, I needed a window, because I still plan to make it so that you can sacrifice Great People to reduce the timer; I didn't want it to be possible for the player to accidentally miss the victory by saccing too many at once.

Now, I think I could get around this by playing with the ProjectCount functions, so that I wouldn't need Anarchy any more at all, but I LIKE the idea of Anarchy during the ascendance process. But in the meantime, I'll just fix it so that if you win the game it hard-sets the counter to zero.
For your game, you can do this yourself in FireTuner, by calling Players[0]:SetAnarchyNumTurns(0). (I'm pretty sure that's the syntax; the wiki's wrong on this one. It's wrong on a lot of things, like how it has the argument list for Players:SetWinner backwards. If that doesn't work, then you can use ChangeAnarchyNumTurns(-100) or something.)
 
Based on your previous comment I'm not seeing this:

What I mean is this: I'm trying to think in terms of how many turns it'd be before a conquered city is no longer a drain on your empire's Happiness. This, after all, is the main counterbalance to massive expansion.

In the vanilla game (base unhappiness: 2), before a conquered city can really break even on Happiness you need a Courthouse, and then up to 3 Happiness buildings (not counting the Circus or various Wonders) depending on population. In most cases it's just Courthouse + Colosseum, and you're ready to go.

In my current game version (base unhappiness: 4), you need a Courthouse AND a Temple AND some set of those same three Happiness buildings, except that each now gives less Happiness and so you'd probably need more of them. Plus the city-growth ones, the Aqueduct, Sewer System, etc. as the city gets larger, although these have the usual 66% chance of being in a conquered city.

If I went with option A (base unhappiness: 3), you'd still need the Courthouse, etc., but you'd need one fewer Happiness building. So a conquered city would break even faster; not quite as fast as a vanilla game, but all you'd really need is one extra Temple, at least for a tiny conquered city. But more specifically, this'd speed up conquest and/or rapid Settler expansion in general, because a new size 1 city wouldn't drain as much away from your empire.

If I went with option B (base unhappiness: 4), then technically you're no worse off than the current mod. But the idea is that you'd spend a few extra turns making that extra one or two happiness buildings. Or more likely, you'd build those instead of adding a very expensive and time-consuming Stadium, so it might actually speed things up a little.

My train of thought was that if you placed these Wonders in the past, then you'd have to take time in order to balance them correctly for those eras, which, because I start my games in the Industrial era, is a waste of time IMO.

Fair point. But, I'd be placing many of them in the late Industrial (Hollywood would be at Radio, Red Cross at Refrigeration, Wall Street at Combustion, and I think I was going to put Three Gorges up at Atomic Theory in the Nuclear Era), although that's still adjustable, so if you're doing an Industrial start then I don't think they'd be a waste of time to go "back" for once you've put the essential city structures in place. The slightly earlier ones (KGB?) I'm not sure on.

I was actually thinking that I was placing them too late, in that they'd be almost useless in a non-Alpha-Centauri game, which was another reason not to put them in the Balance mod. At the techs I listed, they'd really only be useful if you go into the future eras, which means they're actually more intended for that Industrial start you prefer. They'd still be useful for an Ancient start, but more of an afterthought than anything else. (Sort of like the Sydney Opera House. What's the point of adding a Wonder THAT late in a game that's intended to end when the spaceship launches?)

But it is a fair point that if they're expensive to build, then it slows down your early city development for a late start like that, since you might not even have 4 cities at that point let alone four that have the "essential" buildings (Factories and such) in place. That's one of the things I'll have to keep an eye on when I set their prices and flavors. Of course, their benefits will be substantial enough that they'd probably be more valuable than whatever you would have built instead, but it's possible that the negatives could cripple you if you handle it wrong.
Frankly, though, for an Industrial start I'd be more worried about the new tech cost progression; there's a BIG jump between the late-Industrial and early-Nuclear tech costs. So I'm going to go back and check the numbers on an Industrial start this weekend.
 
Just had a read through of the mod, some impressive stuff there so i'm downloading at the moment.

Do you know if it is compatible with R.E.D modpack at all?
 
Just had a read through of the mod, some impressive stuff there so i'm downloading at the moment.

Do you know if it is compatible with R.E.D modpack at all?

I dont think so, the final definatly wont be (last time i checked, polynesia wasent even compatible)
 
Do you know if it is compatible with R.E.D modpack at all?

I generally don't keep track of compatibility, since for stability reasons I only use my own mods when running, so the default answer to ANY "is it compatible" question is probably "no". Or at least, that I don't try to MAKE it be compatible with any outside mods.

Looking through R.E.D., I don't see anything that jumps out as obviously causing an issue. (YET.) R.E.D. mostly just overrides unit models, which should work just fine with my own mod at present, but in the near future I intend to override some of this on my own, which should make the two mods completely incompatible.

Basically, right now, this mod would be incompatible with any mod that:
> Adds new techs. (Not because the techs themselves would conflict, but because mods that add techs to earlier eras would involve changing GridX values. The game would still work, but the tech tree wouldn't display.)
> Modifies the game's resource distributions in any way. (This includes several map scripts.) A mismatch here results in maps that have no Omnicytes, Dilithium, or Neutronium.
> Modifies TechTree.lua (which draws the tech tree), TechButtonInclude.lua, SocialPolicyPopup.lua, NotificationPanel.lua/xml, TopPanel.lua, Bombardment.lua, ResourceIconManager.lua, or the ActionIcons list. This list will continue to get longer as I go.

Eventually it'll also be incompatible with any mod that adjusts unit art defines (including R.E.D.). But that's still a few weeks away.
There are other random incompatibilities as well, depending on exactly what each mod adjusts. But those are the high points.
 
I took a chance and gave it a go, havn't had any problems so far but I'll report back when I get to the new tech stages.
 
It's a great mod, too bad it crashes all the time

Define "all the time". I hardly get any crashes any more. Of course, if you're using v.0.16, then you'll be missing at least two of the possible crash fixes I added post-patch (probably three). This is EXACTLY why I don't encourage using old versions. (Also, at least one crash bug was inherent to the game's engine and was fixed in patch 217, so if you're deliberately keeping your game out-of-date then it's even worse.)

So give details: at what point in the game are you getting crashes? (Which era are you in, etc.?) Which era did you start the game in? Is it a repeatable crash, or is it an unpredictable series of crashes that just get more and more common as the game progresses?

Also, I think this last burst of activity set the record for "most consecutive posts by people other than me".
 
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