Creative - why's everybody always picking on me?

[yavoon]

I'd be happy with Augustus (Creative/Organized) vs. anyone you pick in a MP game.

The higher the level played, the more Creative come into its own.

I dont play MP, so if ur going to talk about MP u can just not talk to me because I wouldn't know. but in terms of SP I'll play along, u take augustus, I'll take neo-augustus financial/organized.

 

[yavoon]

I'd have to disagree here. If you can build that theater in half the time, you're that much quicker to building the Globe Theater. instead of 12 turns to build the Theater, its 6 and now you're 6 turns up on building the Globe than your competition. A couple of turns, chop some, whip some, and you've got your Globe theater in no time.

I can easily build 6 theatres the turn after I've researched drama. I dont know how much faster ur gna get it.

 

[cabert]

I can easily build 6 theatres the turn after I've researched drama. I dont know how much faster ur gna get it.

by researching it much earlier, i think i can have them 20 or 30 turns before you do

Most of the time i have the tech and only have 4 cities , so before i can rush any theater (which by the way you won't be whipping from 0 if you're not creative), i often need to capture some cities

 

[yavoon]

by researching it much earlier, i think i can have them 20 or 30 turns before you do

Most of the time i have the tech and only have 4 cities , so before i can rush any theater (which by the way you won't be whipping from 0 if you're not creative), i often need to capture some cities

what does researching it earlier have to do w/ being creative? and what does whip from 0 even mean? theatres cost 3 pop if u wanna whip same turn and 2 if u wait a turn. both are doable.

and I dont generally have the lack of city problem, more often I'll have a lack of city location problem(for the globe), especially if I extorted drama really soon from someone.

 

[walkingfigment]

I have been experimenting recently with culture as well, using Frederick. I would drop the parthenon in and use the GA it produced to increase the already culture heavy civ. Remember it produces +2 culture per city. It is hard to manage and get up and running, but it is fun to flatten the other civ against the coastline, and if it works right, his smaller cities will join your empire.

Downside is it can piss off the other civ pretty bad. I recently did this to Peter and even though he had the same religion and there was no animosity, he declared war on me out of the blue.

 

[bassist2119]

Downside is it can piss off the other civ pretty bad. I recently did this to Peter and even though he had the same religion and there was no animosity, he declared war on me out of the blue.

This is quite interesting. One of the main points of my argument is that through cultural conquest you can obtain cities w/o the negative benefits of war. In a few games that I tinkered with this, I assumed I was not pissing off the other civ as relations never dropped, but I guess you have a point that they could be pissed off even though relations level aren't dropping. However, the USE that I put his/her acquired resources to was much greater than he had been doing and, as such, the target civ never declared war as their power steadily dropped while mine increased. I guess you have to have a certain degree of efficiency/effectiveness with this strat so that by the time the target realizes what you're doing to him/her, he also realizes that declaring war would be either futile or suicidal.

 

[bassist2119]

Cabert,
Regarding Spiritual:
This is, without question, a very powerful trait. I put it in the same tier as cultural (certainly less than FIN and ORG, but equal or better to others). There are several threads that discuss the applications of anarchy-less switches, too many to name. Personally, I feel it's strongest app. is late game. From 19th century onwards, so much happens in the window of ten turns. A switch is beneficial, but losing ALL hammers and ALL coins for a turn or two equals thousands of lost hammers/coins. Each civics swap or two late-game, therefore, by a spiritual civ equals a golden age for a non-spiritual civ (very rough estimation.). This, by itself, is extremely powerful. Cheap temples are tricky though. The only minor qualm I have w/ spiritual is that you then NEED to acquire a religion(s), preferably a holy city. This means either limiting research options or going to war with someone that may not otherwise be the best option. All in all, you may be correct in that SPI>CUL, but CUL gives a flexibility in tactical application of aforementioned strats.

i tried the same strat (maybe not as thoroughly as you did)

Possible, however unlikely. First, I have claimed a level of play of apprenticeship for good reason Second, the Prince level game that I referred to bore quite a few big mistakes. Though it's rather embarrassing to admit, 1.)I accidentally put put two Nwonders in my big$ city before Wall Street. 2.) I ran on Despotism for the whole game 3.) I switched to Free Market when mercantilism would have been better, adding more anarchy later. 4.) My starting location, though good, could have been quite a bit better - floodplains, 1 cow, and 1 iron. 4.) Never got involved with overseas trade in continents game.
I did, however, supplement this with other strats mentioned in the forum - 1.)CS slingshot 2.) tech trading monopolied techs to all in same turn. 3.) aggressive w/ cottages. 4.) Using tactics 1-3 plus aggressive culture conquests, I was able to found the last three religions, adding your tactical advice to everything else.

So my play and application of strats, including my own, are quirky and messy at best; I'm trying to improve this. They are multi-faceted, though, and this provides the ability to dominate at Prince and survive on Monarch.

 

[cabert]

Cabert,
Regarding Spiritual:
This is, without question, a very powerful trait.

right

<SNIP>

All in all, you may be correct in that SPI>CUL, but CUL gives a flexibility in tactical application of aforementioned strats.

(i'm french, and i wouldn't use CUL on any serious occasion, try a translator )
And the trait is Creative, so CRE would be more relevent anyway.
Well, spiritual isn't as great in the early game and creative isn't very useful later.
The cheap temples are a powerful thing, when you need to build a lot (cultural win).
In any other situation, the cheap temples are no big advantage (how many temples do you really build? Often i have happiness from other sources faster)

First, I have claimed a level of play of apprenticeship for good reason Second, the Prince level game that I referred to bore quite a few big mistakes. Though it's rather embarrassing to admit, 1.)I accidentally put put two Nwonders in my big$ city before Wall Street. 2.) I ran on Despotism for the whole game 3.) I switched to Free Market when mercantilism would have been better, adding more anarchy later. 4.) My starting location, though good, could have been quite a bit better - floodplains, 1 cow, and 1 iron. 4.) Never got involved with overseas trade in continents game.

well, those moves have nothing to do with the "culture flip" strat you mentionned.

I did, however, supplement this with other strats mentioned in the forum - 1.)CS slingshot 2.) tech trading monopolied techs to all in same turn. 3.) aggressive w/ cottages. 4.) Using tactics 1-3 plus aggressive culture conquests, I was able to found the last three religions, adding your tactical advice to everything else.

Let me tell you one thing : if you managed to capture good cities with your strat, then it's a good one.
I often culture flip cities when it's not useful anymore (other than score) .

So my play and application of strats, including my own, are quirky and messy at best; I'm trying to improve this. They are multi-faceted, though, and this provides the ability to dominate at Prince and survive on Monarch.

winning on prince is not apprenticeship
IMHO, it's the level were noobs show their limits (It's the first level where builder mode brings trouble).

And surviving monarch is just a few steps from winning on monarch (a little more warring, a little earlier, maybe?)

 

[bassist2119]

And the trait is Creative, so CRE would be more relevent anyway.

Sorry. Post was made after midnight and after a 16 hour work day.

well, those moves have nothing to do with the "culture flip" strat you mentionned.

My point being that if I could pull off a few running wins on prince and contention on Monarch, a more skilled and thorough player may find surprising results on equal and higher difficulty levels.

And surviving monarch is just a few steps from winning on monarch (a little more warring, a little earlier, maybe?)

Good advice, I think I'll settle here for a while though (hopefully not permanently) at least for experimentation/development. I may already posess the necessary prowess to play at higher levels, but I've always found great enjoyment in playing these games at levels where I more or less dominate rather than contend - Currently at Prince, I usually have tanks before any AI has rifles. Also, I enjoy a great deal of flexibility, and won't play at levels where some civs are no longer inferior to others, but can no longer be played. Hence, I doubt I'll ever reach deity.
My next experiment, for example, will be using expansive, another often bashed triat, coupled with a non-happy trait and running HR civic for practically limitless growth.

 

[onedreamer]

true, but the strat is about swallowing cities without war.
And i find myself often at the door of a religious nut, often a spiritual one : isa, hatcheptsuh or Gandhi.
Why? because the holy city is a juicy target.
A target you won't be able to outculture...
Is it clearer so?

Yeah I agree with you that on higher levels especially (Monarch +) making a city flip with culture is very hard, not to mention if it's a holy city of the state religion (if it's not the state religion though you don't get the +5 culture). I don't agree on Hatshepsut though, she isn't anywhere near a religious nut, in fact she doesn't care much of religion. I'm always friendly to her and vice versa, even when of different religions. But you have to trade with her and entertain her somehow

 

[cabert]

Yeah I agree with you that on higher levels especially (Monarch +) making a city flip with culture is very hard, not to mention if it's a holy city of the state religion (if it's not the state religion though you don't get the +5 culture). I don't agree on Hatshepsut though, she isn't anywhere near a religious nut, in fact she doesn't care much of religion. I'm always friendly to her and vice versa, even when of different religions. But you have to trade with her and entertain her somehow

the point was that holy cities are good to capture
it's still very tempting even if it's a city from the easy to please hatchepetsuh

 

[OceansEleven]

I love Creative. Along with Industrious, it's one of the best qualities.

+2 just helps. Even if you build Stongehenge, +1 isn't as effective as +2. Stongehenge + the +2 rocks. Bigger borders, which I think is one of the most important things.

In the late game, it's not as useful though. But it helps you to be the biggest/strongest.

 

[drkodos]

I dont play MP, so if ur going to talk about MP u can just not talk to me because I wouldn't know. but in terms of SP I'll play along, u take augustus, I'll take neo-augustus financial/organized.

AI never makes the most use of any of the traits, UU's or other characteristics of any of the civs, so game testing against the AI it is easy to cull data that swells in one area and makes it look as if somethings are stronger than others.

The only true test is against an equal or superior intelligence, and for that, one needs go the MP route. And in that arena, if one has the FinOrg (Washington) they rarely even make it to the middle ages. The UU comes too late, and all too often they are overrun and eliminated before they get their cottage economy going. I agree though, that particulary combo is a monster if one handles it correctly and can survive into late game stages (which is easy to do playing SP, no matter what traits one picks).

I do play mostly SP, but found MP to be the best learning ground for what is really the strongest traits, UU's, UB's and strategies for combative play. Now if one is looking for the pacifistic way to go, then by all means keep to SP and keep one's fingers crossed as well.

FYI: In Warlords, Japan (Agg/Protective) is amazing in MP. Trouble for anyone that is in the neighborhood, un;ess a true putz is helming Toku.

 

[malekithe]

The chances that creative will have a noticable impact on your ability to culture flip opponents' cities are very slim. Given the way culture accumulation works, you'll need at least twice the cultural "level" of the opponenet's city (he's at 0 you're at 100, or he's at 10 and you're at 500). That means that, aside from the very beginning of the game, two culture per turn is a very small percentage of the total culture your "attacking" city would need to develop. For instance, in order to flip a city that's managed to reach 100 culture, your city is going to need at least 5000 culture. That's fifty times the cultural output of the opponent's city. Two culture per turn is a drop in the bucket of what is neccessary.

The only time creative could possibly makes a noticable difference for culture flips is early in the game when your non-creative opponents do not have a reliable source of culture in their newly founded cities. Even in these scenarios, though, you're running up a pretty steep hill, as you'll need to spend many turns over 100 culture before your opponent gets over 10. Later in the game, flipping cities usually requires a concerted effort involving multiple sources of culture, and probably some culture multipliers. In my experience, the two most important things for culture flipping are multiple religions and free speech.

The strength of creative lies in your ability to place cities in optimal places in the early game. You can place 2 tiles away from the copper without worry. You can place cities with 6 resources in their fat cross. A non-creative civ either has to settle more cities to gather those resources, or simply wait longer before they're accessible. This is a very powerful bonus for short games. The quality of the trait declines, though, as the relative power of bonus resource tiles diminishes. In the late game, you'll actually wish you had placed more sub-optimal cities, as nearly any city can be made into a powerhouse.

 

[yavoon]

AI never makes the most use of any of the traits, UU's or other characteristics of any of the civs, so game testing against the AI it is easy to cull data that swells in one area and makes it look as if somethings are stronger than others.

The only true test is against an equal or superior intelligence, and for that, one needs go the MP route. And in that arena, if one has the FinOrg (Washington) they rarely even make it to the middle ages. The UU comes too late, and all too often they are overrun and eliminated before they get their cottage economy going. I agree though, that particulary combo is a monster if one handles it correctly and can survive into late game stages (which is easy to do playing SP, no matter what traits one picks).

I do play mostly SP, but found MP to be the best learning ground for what is really the strongest traits, UU's, UB's and strategies for combative play. Now if one is looking for the pacifistic way to go, then by all means keep to SP and keep one's fingers crossed as well.

FYI: In Warlords, Japan (Agg/Protective) is amazing in MP. Trouble for anyone that is in the neighborhood, un;ess a true putz is helming Toku.

its irrelevant how the AI uses traits, it is only relevant about which traits/strategies work against the AI. its mildly absurd to say u can't come to a conclusion of effectiveness vs the AI.

like I said, I dont play MP. so desist in proving u can't read and stop talking to me about MP.

 

[drkodos]

its irrelevant how the AI uses traits, it is only relevant about which traits/strategies work against the AI. its mildly absurd to say u can't come to a conclusion of effectiveness vs the AI.

like I said, I dont play MP. so desist in proving u can't read and stop talking to me about MP.

The AI is weak. All traits and strategies work against the AI. Also, not all my comments were aimed at you, sir. This one is: I can understand why some people need to keep themselves in their safety zones and prefer to never really have a true test of their abilities. Fragile egos need that type of protection.





When you are ready, I can recommend a good proctologist to get that bug out.

 

[yavoon]

The AI is weak. All traits and strategies work against the AI. Also, not all my comments were aimed at you, sir. This one is: I can understand why some people need to keep themselves in their safety zones and prefer to never really have a true test of their abilities. Fragile egos need that type of protection.





When you are ready, I can recommend a good proctologist to get that bug out.

I dont play MP because its impractical. and not all traits and strategies work against the AI, just look at the hall of fame. are they doing anything they want? no. look at deity/immortal strat guides, even emperor.

u know its really like u lack a basic understanding of the idea of strategies.