Creativity dead in game industry?

[Izipo]

Exactly, sequels are not really a problem, seeing as most of the time they really expand the gameplay and the universe it's set in.

The milking really comes from expansions packs and add-ons (Yes, the Sims, I'm looking at you).

 

[Danielos]

How about instead of complaining about how unimaginitive the game developers are, you come up with some creative game ideas?

Well, for starters how about a FPS set in WW1? Or a Heart of Iron-game set in modern ages or WW1? Or why not in a fantasy setting? Or a Sims-game set in the Middle Ages? A racing-game with all sort of weapons and equipment to blast your opponents/win the races like the old "Supercars"-games?

Most of all though I am annoyed by the way RPGs work. You know the drill, you walk around, talk with people, maybe join up with some of them, get some quests, kill some badguys, get the girl and end the game.

But what both the Sims-games, adventure games and RPGs need to do is to create a dynamic, believable world that is not just a movie set for you. Both Morrowind and Neverwinter Nights have huge number of quests and a big world to explore, but there is no sense that you are interacting with a living world that have an independent life of it´s own. If you visit a tavern, people are just standing there, doing nothing. If you come back later, the same people are still standing there doing nothing, just waiting for you to interact with them. If you do, they will just tell you the same thing you heard last time. The illusion of a real world where time passes and things happen independently of you is never there.

Here is what I would propose instead:

* Limit the world size and number of important NPCs!

* Less resources on graphics!

* No or just a few major quests!

And now you say: WTH are you talking about? What lame kind of game would that be?
But what if we instead had something like this?

You may have a general plot, but the rest of the game is completely open. All NPCs have an advanced AI that enable them to make independent decision and do adventures on their own! They would act depending on the role-player characters and the personality the game has given to them, but would also spontaneously do things based on what you are up to and what happens in the game world.

For example, say that you are playing Morrowind. You visit a cave, and are giddy with excitement for what riches you may find inside. You enter the cave, and find the beasts already slain inside and the riches already taken! Somebody has beat you to it! You visit the local tavern and hear rumours that old Griggy Hafbunk had fond treasure. He also bought the last sword in sale. The barkeeper said he was heading south!

Ooops...what was that? A dynamic quest that was not scripted but was acted out dynamically by an intelligent, advanced NPC? A world which is dynamic and ever changing independently of yourself? A world with competitive AI-characters, where NPCs may loot YOUR caves, buy YOUR equipment and solve YOUR quests? A world which is completely new every time you start a new game? A world without a scripted story and ending?

Now THAT would be something to impress me!!

 

[Leonel]

Hearts of Iron 3 is going to be an entirely different creature!

Hahahahaha good one

 

[Danielos]

Hahahahaha good one

HoI3 will feel as new and fresh as a saucage stored since 1939...

 

[henrebotha]

Well, for starters how about a FPS set in WW1? Or a Heart of Iron-game set in modern ages or WW1? Or why not in a fantasy setting? Or a Sims-game set in the Middle Ages? A racing-game with all sort of weapons and equipment to blast your opponents/win the races like the old "Supercars"-games?

Most of all though I am annoyed by the way RPGs work. You know the drill, you walk around, talk with people, maybe join up with some of them, get some quests, kill some badguys, get the girl and end the game.

But what both the Sims-games, adventure games and RPGs need to do is to create a dynamic, believable world that is not just a movie set for you. Both Morrowind and Neverwinter Nights have huge number of quests and a big world to explore, but there is no sense that you are interacting with a living world that have an independent life of it´s own. If you visit a tavern, people are just standing there, doing nothing. If you come back later, the same people are still standing there doing nothing, just waiting for you to interact with them. If you do, they will just tell you the same thing you heard last time. The illusion of a real world where time passes and things happen independently of you is never there.

Here is what I would propose instead:

* Limit the world size and number of important NPCs!

* Less resources on graphics!

* No or just a few major quests!

And now you say: WTH are you talking about? What lame kind of game would that be?
But what if we instead had something like this?

You may have a general plot, but the rest of the game is completely open. All NPCs have an advanced AI that enable them to make independent decision and do adventures on their own! They would act depending on the role-player characters and the personality the game has given to them, but would also spontaneously do things based on what you are up to and what happens in the game world.

For example, say that you are playing Morrowind. You visit a cave, and are giddy with excitement for what riches you may find inside. You enter the cave, and find the beasts already slain inside and the riches already taken! Somebody has beat you to it! You visit the local tavern and hear rumours that old Griggy Hafbunk had fond treasure. He also bought the last sword in sale. The barkeeper said he was heading south!

Ooops...what was that? A dynamic quest that was not scripted but was acted out dynamically by an intelligent, advanced NPC? A world which is dynamic and ever changing independently of yourself? A world with competitive AI-characters, where NPCs may loot YOUR caves, buy YOUR equipment and solve YOUR quests? A world which is completely new every time you start a new game? A world without a scripted story and ending?

Now THAT would be something to impress me!!

Your attempted sarcasm is making this post incredibly hard to understand - or reply to.

Particularly in the first paragraph, and particularly the bolded bit.

 

[Chieftess]

There's plenty of creativity, but the major developers don't want to risk their cash on new IP when they have proven formulas they can milk.

IP?

Anyway, I think it's that, and the fact that games are so expensive to make now that it's cheaper to reuse an 'old' game engine. Thus, you have a rehash of the same game.

I remember back in the days when the Toys'R'Us store was still around (it's a Babys'R'Us now - I was confused the first time I saw it.. ) and it had maybe 5 aisles full of games (maybe stacked 10-12 high, and well over 50 wide), or at least a tag that you gave to the clerk by the storage area. There must've been 3,000 games! That was 20 () years ago! 10-5 years ago, the gaming section was relagated to a corner of the store (where the cart entrance and storage desk used to be!) that had maybe 20 games - with 3 of each box. Even CompUSA had a larger selection (and they went mostly out of business). Making 8 bit games was a lot easier, and quicker (20-50 8x8 or 16x16 tile graphics, 5 simple musical scores...), to make than a full 3D world with surround sound, realistic graphics, real-life AI, and make it multiplayer.

 

[Fr8monkey]

Hahahahaha good one

Why the hate. Have you even looked at it?

 

[Danielos]

Your attempted sarcasm is making this post incredibly hard to understand - or reply to.

Particularly in the first paragraph, and particularly the bolded bit.

There is not that much sarcasm in my post. Maybe I only is poor at English. About the bolded parts; do you know about the old "Supercars"-games to Amiga? That was what I was refering to...

I hope you were able to follow my thoughts on what would make a RPG fresh and exciting, at least!

 

[Danielos]

Why the hate. Have you even looked at it?

I love HoI2, but think it is too soon for a similar game again, and that they should do something new. Just increasing the number of provinces, going 3D and making the game geekier is not really that much progress.

That I was banned from the HoI3 Paradox forums by Johan Andersson doesn´t really increase my love of the product, him or the company either...

 

[GenMarshall]

Anyway, I think it's that, and the fact that games are so expensive to make now that it's cheaper to reuse an 'old' game engine. Thus, you have a rehash of the same game.

I guess that's why Valve loves their Source Engine .

 

[azzaman333]

IP?

Anyway, I think it's that, and the fact that games are so expensive to make now that it's cheaper to reuse an 'old' game engine. Thus, you have a rehash of the same game.

I remember back in the days when the Toys'R'Us store was still around (it's a Babys'R'Us now - I was confused the first time I saw it.. ) and it had maybe 5 aisles full of games (maybe stacked 10-12 high, and well over 50 wide), or at least a tag that you gave to the clerk by the storage area. There must've been 3,000 games! That was 20 () years ago! 10-5 years ago, the gaming section was relagated to a corner of the store (where the cart entrance and storage desk used to be!) that had maybe 20 games - with 3 of each box. Even CompUSA had a larger selection (and they went mostly out of business). Making 8 bit games was a lot easier, and quicker (20-50 8x8 or 16x16 tile graphics, 5 simple musical scores...), to make than a full 3D world with surround sound, realistic graphics, real-life AI, and make it multiplayer.

IP = Intellectual Property.

 

[Maniacal]

That I was banned from the HoI3 Paradox forums by Johan Andersson doesn´t really increase my love of the product, him or the company either...

If you got banned then you were probably doing something you really shouldn't have done.

 

[henrebotha]

There is not that much sarcasm in my post. Maybe I only is poor at English. About the bolded parts; do you know about the old "Supercars"-games to Amiga? That was what I was refering to...

I hope you were able to follow my thoughts on what would make a RPG fresh and exciting, at least!

Really? Then there is something fundamentally wrong with your argument. You are stating that "creativity and originality is close to 0", and you're asking for "fresh, original title"; but then you go and say they should make games like the old "Supercars"-games. If you're making games like they used to make games long ago, you're not making new, interesting, original, fresh material - you're just recycling the same . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

And FYI, there are several FPSes set in WW1. I've played at least four that I can't even remember the names of.

Have you ever played Oblivion, by the way? Morrowind did a lot for realism, but Oblivion went so far above and beyond that that it really should be a kind of benchmark.

I totally agree with you that games need to start dynamically scripting events - it can't be that hard.

 

[Danielos]

Really? Then there is something fundamentally wrong with your argument. You are stating that "creativity and originality is close to 0", and you're asking for "fresh, original title"; but then you go and say they should make games like the old "Supercars"-games. If you're making games like they used to make games long ago, you're not making new, interesting, original, fresh material - you're just recycling the same . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

And FYI, there are several FPSes set in WW1. I've played at least four that I can't even remember the names of.

Have you ever played Oblivion, by the way? Morrowind did a lot for realism, but Oblivion went so far above and beyond that that it really should be a kind of benchmark.

I totally agree with you that games need to start dynamically scripting events - it can't be that hard.

I know. My main argument was about how RPGs should be. I just liked the old Supercars-games and is surprised that racing-games like that are never made anymore. And I still would like to see a Heart of Iron: 1910-1920 and a Battlefield 1916.

Yes, Oblivion made some progress with the "Radiant AI", but I envision something MUCH more revolutionary than that. Not just dynamically scripted events, but a more or less non-scripted game. Just imagine if the NPCs could do the same thing you do:

* Explore
* Talk with other characters (to gain information, not to give you information!)
* Buy new weapons and equipment
* Loot caves
* Take on quests and missions independently of you
* Gain experience, level up and gain new skills and abilities

The game would now longer center around you, and the NPCs being scripted actors in a set, it would be a dynamic, unpredictable world with heavy competition for gold, equipment and fame, just as the real world.

I think for example Bethesda could make a RPG with a much smaller world, less characters, uglier graphics and no recorded voices. Instead most of the effort should be on creating this living, breathing world, where a game would never be the same twice. This goes for adventure games and the Sims as well...

 

[henrebotha]

I know. My main argument was about how RPGs should be. I just liked the old Supercars-games and is surprised that racing-games like that are never made anymore. And I still would like to see a Heart of Iron: 1910-1920 and a Battlefield 1916.

Yes, Oblivion made some progress with the "Radiant AI", but I envision something MUCH more revolutionary than that. Not just dynamically scripted events, but a more or less non-scripted game. Just imagine if the NPCs could do the same thing you do:

* Explore
* Talk with other characters (to gain information, not to give you information!)
* Buy new weapons and equipment
* Loot caves
* Take on quests and missions independently of you
* Gain experience, level up and gain new skills and abilities

The game would now longer center around you, and the NPCs being scripted actors in a set, it would be a dynamic, unpredictable world with heavy competition for gold, equipment and fame, just as the real world.

I think for example Bethesda could make a RPG with a much smaller world, less characters, uglier graphics and no recorded voices. Instead most of the effort should be on creating this living, breathing world, where a game would never be the same twice. This goes for adventure games and the Sims as well...

I apologise, I didn't think "dynamically scripted" was an existing concept. By that, I meant "games that generate scripts/missions/quests/content on-the-fly".

Anyway, I completely agree with you (as stated before), and I've spent some time trying to think how to go about this. I think the biggest issue is balance. Consider how much effort goes into making sure all the aspects of a game like Civ are balanced. Now, imagine you add on-the-fly scripting to the game - now, suddenly, there are so many millions of different facets to consider, you couldn't possibly expect to balance everything properly. You'd just have to wing it, and that would mean games like that would be very hit-and-miss.

I think if they start small - for instance, in Elder Scrolls V, keeping the game mostly scripted but adding small possibilities for random events like new quests being generated etc - they can build from there. But it'll be a long time before we see behaviour like this.

Just imagine: decent AI, on-the-fly scripting, and the capacity to randomly generate locales (like in Diablo) - all in one massive, immersive RPG.

 

[Maniacal]

RPGS don't need to be balanced, or there would be no challange or just a giant grindfest. And Oblivion had few improvements over Morrowind, mostly just some modernization. Fallout 3 was much better.

 

[Sarcasticon]

How about instead of complaining about how unimaginitive the game developers are, you come up with some creative game ideas?

That may not even be necessary; developers have been failing to revive some existing games that are still popular nowadays, think about Syndicate, UFO: Enemy unknown, Master of Magic (well, that's going to be tackled by Stardock but in the past decade no other company managed to recreate MoM) or even Transport Tycoon (the closest is a 99% copy that doesn't add much over the original in any way)...

 

[plarq]

That I was banned from the HoI3 Paradox forums by Johan Andersson doesn´t really increase my love of the product, him or the company either...

Johan bans you? You would suffer in HOI world! Army get chewed up by Luxembourg, for example.

 

[Danielos]

Johan bans you? You would suffer in HOI world! Army get chewed up by Luxembourg, for example.

Well, I don´t like the intolerant, arrogant and somewhat geeky attitude of the Paradox forums anyway...

 

[frekk]

If you're making games like they used to make games long ago, you're not making new, interesting, original, fresh material - you're just recycling the same . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

Well, yes and no. It could be new to a new audience. It could be new if the context, media, or qualities are somehow different.

Plus, variations on a theme aren't always bad, and novelty for the sake of novelty is not necessarily good. Chess certainly isn't a novel game, but it's far and away more popular than any given video game franchise. I'd expect that, in 50 years time, the most succesful video game franchises of all time will prove to be those that were longest-running and most consistent between editions. Because novelty fades, but novelty isn't the only appeal a game can have.