Crime and Punishment

Yom

Re-ese Mekwanint
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No, not the book. Rather, the question I have to ask is seemingly simple but complex in its answer's implications: what is the purpose of punishment in crimes? Is the institution of prison a detterant, a way to reform criminals, a punishment greater than the crime in order to exact revenge? What is it, exactly? Effectively, what is justice? Civil laws generally try to simply compensate people for lost money, but criminal law generally includes retributive attributes; even breaches of civil law sometimes require that punitive damages be paid.

Well?

P.S. I expect a lengthy and thoughtful reply on the subject from you, FredLC. ;)
 
Well, though many people believe and argue for prison as a deterrent, it's original concept was really just to keep criminals out of society in a efficient and (relatively) humane way. Previously, societies torutred, killed or exiled criminals.
 
I would guess that jails are to keep us safe from people who are violent or whom we don't like. We've always had these. Prisons, on the other hand, are probably a product of Enlightenment thinking that a rational reform system, through application of methodical discipline in mathematical proportion to the crime, can improve anyone and help make them part of society. It's a necessary component of the clockwork view of the better society, with nobody left behind. Combine this with Victorian ideas of public morality and the work ethic, and you have today's penal system: oriented toward reform, but permeated still by the wish to see misdoers suffer.

It depends on the country, but the modern focus is definitely on reform. When Karla Homolka can get a B.Sc. and M.Sc. for free in prison, it's fairly clear that punishment is not the government's priority. (I'm not saying prisons are too liberal, it's just an extreme example that people are guaranteed to find hateful.) However, the fact that jails remain seedy, unclean, violent places, as well as the continued use of capital punishment in certain backward countries, show that Thanatos is clearly alive and well.

I recommend Michel Foucault's Discipline and Punish. It's an account of the origins of the modern answer to this very question, and begins by examining both the daily schedule of a Victorian boys' reform institution and a graphic account of the prolonged and extremely horrible public torture-execution of an attempted regicide in absolutist France. To give you the basic idea, it turns out that the English were relatively quite kind and gentle with Braveheart. Tough reading, to be sure, but very interesting.
 
The purpose of punishment for crime:

Prevention:prisoners can't commit crimes as easy as they're at large.
Reformance:Change criminals into normal people.
Revenge:To deteor wannabe criminals.
Yom said:
Civil laws generally try to simply compensate people for lost money, but criminal law generally includes retributive attributes; even breaches of civil law sometimes require that punitive damages be paid.
That may be the biggest difference between Civil Laws and Criminal Laws,crimes can never be fully compensated,so revenge is required to comfort the victim and the people.But revenge is brutal(esp. death penalty and torturement of criminals),sometimes we measure the progress of a society by the condition of prisons.
Reasons for a person to commit crimes come from ill circumstanses,so reformance is needed,the downside of reformance is that it often becomes a segragation between those former criminals and "normal" people,thus raising hate in those criminals.
 
As far as I can reason it out , criminals are those who have violated rights . They have , thus , forfeited the corresponding right ( if only temporarily ) to live in a society that grants such rights . Therefore , to prevent such people from committing similar crimes on other innocents , and also to prevent them from being given rights of which they are no longer deserving , we put people in prisons .

Works , but only if implemented properly . And yes , I have said this before , and I will say it again - put offenders who have killed ( or equivalent ) in some permanent exile , with no contact with the outside world .
 
Punishment should ideally be a combination of the basic criteria, administered in a mostly dispassionate way that still retains a wild eyed love for seeing right done. Effective punishment should show all that the act was wrong; where appropriate rehabilitate/reeducate the offender or ensure their exfiltration from the mortal coil; it should protect and avenge society and its proper masters.
 
Indeed!

Our laws are forged to react to the changing demands and requirements of our societies.
And if the people wish to see a miscreant eliminated, it is against our own culture not to do so!

The UK should bring back the noose.
And I can think of a great many candidates to keep the hangman busy.

.
 
CurtSibling said:
Indeed!

Our laws are forged to react to the changing demands and requirements of our societies.
And if the people wish to see a miscreant eliminated, it is against our own culture not to do so!

The UK should bring back the noose.
And I can think of a great many candidates to keep the hangman busy.

.

This finally answers forunatley doubtless weather UK belongs to Europe or not... :shakehead:
 
CurtSibling said:
Indeed!

Our laws are forged to react to the changing demands and requirements of our societies.
And if the people wish to see a miscreant eliminated, it is against our own culture not to do so!

The UK should bring back the noose.
And I can think of a great many candidates to keep the hangman busy.

.
So punishment should just be based on what societal norms are? If the tradition and commonly accepted view is to draw and quarter blasphemers, heretics, and atheists, then is the government justified in doing so?
 
CurtSibling said:
This is exactly what has always happened in history.

.
And you are agreeing with it that you should be persecuted?

I am not talking about what happened in history. I am talking about what punishment should be.
 
The justification for drawing and quartering, or indeed any form of capital punishment, is not drawn alone from societal beliefs, but rather from their basis in objective truths, and from codes of right and wrong.

The traditional method of dealing with heretics and all that lot is to burn them, so if they are going to go, then let it be that way.
 
CurtSibling said:
The UK should bring back the noose.
And I can think of a great many candidates to keep the hangman busy.

.

It's an interesting dichotomy that you can profess to being ultra-rational on the issue of God, and yet still be riotously irrational on this issue.
 
Yom said:
And you are agreeing with it that you should be persecuted?

In a world where atheists are the minority, I am persecuted.

If so, then so be it.

Yom said:
I am not talking about what happened in history. I am talking about what punishment should be.

And I told you of my stance...Which I suspect you already know.

.
 
CurtSibling said:
Irrational is only your word for it.

I'd say it was a pretty good word for it, no? What would you call it? What do you base this idea that these people should be killed, if not pure emotional sentiment?
 
CurtSibling said:
In a world where atheists are the minority, I am persecuted.

If so, then so be it.
So you think that you should be persecuted?



CurtSibling said:
And I told you of my stance...Which I suspect you already know.

.
I know that you consider revenge a part of the reason for punishment (and are for capital punishment), but I did not think that you based this on societal values, seeing as you are a strong atheist. I still want to flesh out your beliefs because, as Hamlet said, they seem to be irrational.
 
There are a number of valid reasons for punishment such as prison:

* physically preventing the prisoner from repeating crime, while in jail
* deterring that prisoner from repeating that crime, after their release
* deterring lesser criminals from escalating to major crime
* deterring the law abiding from becoming criminals
* substituting for private vengeance (which is error & failure prone and risks vendetta)
* facilitating an opportunity for re-habilitation
* conforming to the moral principle that crime should be punished

The extent to which each of these is the reason and the likelihood for success will vary from case to case; so this list cannot be meaningfully ordered.

There are of course quite invalid reasons for imprisonment as practiced
by dictators, totalitarian states, slavers and kidnappers etc.
 
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