Crossbowman

[Un Oso]

I've found that the crossbowman makes an excellent shock troop. Never thought so before, until I played a game as China. Cho-Ku-Nu worked like a dream, and since then I've realize the Crossbowman is just generally a superior unit.

He wins out 9-8 against Maceman, who themselves require Machinery, the same strategic resources, and quite a bit further research. Arguably the Maceman could come several strategic eras later, and they lose in a matchup. That's not including first strikes.

They stack up better against axemen, as well.

And while the Maceman is better against various mounted units, he falls far short in that arena to a few good pikemen. In fact the far cheaper and less advanced spearman stacks up just as well against mounted cats.

It seems the only advantage the Maceman has over the crossbowman as a general shock unit (which either way will need moderate support in a stack) would be that he can purchase City Raider, and has a higher base strength against bowman. Except that by that stage you should be winning your cities primarily by siege. In view of that, the most valuable promotion is NOT City Raider but, in fact, Drill, which the Maceman doesn't have access to.

I guess my point is more that the Maceman seems, now, like a completely superfluous unit. If you fight intelligently with siege and stack support, you don't need to adjust your strategy at all, just substitute Crossbowman for Maceman, and you'll get better results. They're cheaper, anyways.

 

[JujuLautre]

What about when you fight something else? Like, longbows ?

Also, the argument that macemen should not be used against mounted because pikes exist does not make sense, since when a pike attacks a stack, he will likely not face the mounted units.

The only units against which crossbows are better than macemen are other crossbows and macemen; against every other unit, on offence, a maceman is better (I don't include axes since both unit eat them for breakfast in any case; let's talk about units of the same era )

 

[Un Oso]

Why am I attacking mounted units in the field?

Stack warfare? City assault? Siege becomes very important in both circumstances, and with siege Drill becomes far more important than base strength (attack and defence).

Pillagers? With non-mounted support? They throw away their mobility advantage and are much easier to deal with. Without support? Pikes and your own mounted units are better than Macemen.

I suppose fighting up-hill the situation changes a bit. Maces are better equipped to fight gunpowder units, fight at a smaller disadvantage.

But in their own era, as you say, comparing hammer and beaker costs... Only in very particular circumstances are they best suited for any given task.

 

[JujuLautre]

Well, obviously it depends of what we are talking about: are we talking about busting cities with several various defenders inside? About busting a stack in the field composed of various units? About defence against a few knight pillagers? Or something else?

It seems to me that options 1 and 2 are the one happening most of the time. In which situations maces are clearly superior to crossbows.

That is not to say that I would forfeit the use of crossbows. Just that stating that they are superior to maces in a role of "shock" unit is wrong imho.

Or you are considering that you fight units severely weakened by trebs and cats. In which case the unit you use does not really matter anyway.

 

[Molybdeus]

The fact that macemen can take the City Raider chain of promotions, while crossbowmen can't, is a huge benefit if you are primarily going to use your troops to attack cities. Also, Civil Service is needed for Bureaucracy anyway.

Crossbowmen are very good, though. Their real advantage comes in pillaging wars since they have no counter except perhaps mounted units, which you can easily defend against by stacking a couple of them with a spearman/pikeman.

 

[Iranon]

I really don't think having City Raider available instead of Drill is a big advantage for cleanup troops - I'm often willing to promote Samurai along the Drill line. City Raider is valuable if we don't intend to suicide many siege units in the first place - in the case of lone defenders or when our siege is outclassed by our other units (such as after a Rifling beeline; here upgraded CR Riflemen shine).

The reason I will prefer some Macemen is simple: 2 more basic strength. Highly-protected longbows on hills can still kill attackers after being shot to hell, and sometimes there's a lone defender of decent strength left... in both cases this actually matters.

If my opponent isn't crippled already, Macemen are also useful in stack warfare especially before knights, because they are the best defenders against catapults.

***
Having said that, too many Macemen and too few counter units is dangerous; if I expect vicious counterattacks I will drop a few can openers in favour of flankers/counter units.

 

[hecubus]

He wins out 9-8 against Maceman, who themselves require Machinery, the same strategic resources, and quite a bit further research.

I've been able to build macemen with only access to copper in recent games, I think it was a 3.17 change? Crossbows still require iron. And while I am indeed a big fan of Drill crossbows as stack defenders, I still prefer to build plenty of maces with City Raider since I can later upgrade them to rifles, who normally can't get CR.

 

[Unionfield]

I wish I could understand all this complex sounding strategy that goes into city defending and attacking. When I want to take something over, I make a 20 stack with 5 or so catapults and that always seems to work.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Crossbows can also upgrade to rifles.

 

[hecubus]

Crossbows can also upgrade to rifles.

But they can't bring along the City Raider promotion.

 

[Un Oso]

Or you are considering that you fight units severely weakened by trebs and cats. In which case the unit you use does not really matter anyway.

Even against weakened units your city raider maces are prone to get injured (sometimes into the red), slowing down the advance. More siege reduces this, but how much siege are you willing to bring. Drill makes your units quite a bit more likely to knock those injured enemies off unscathed. So, no, the unit you pick is not vital, but it does matter.

I've been able to build macemen with only access to copper in recent games, I think it was a 3.17 change? Crossbows still require iron. And while I am indeed a big fan of Drill crossbows as stack defenders, I still prefer to build plenty of maces with City Raider since I can later upgrade them to rifles, who normally can't get CR.

Yeah, good counter-points. I didn't know about the resource change. And I tend to forget my game is modified so gunpowder units can take city raider. Lately I still prefer drill, though.

I wish I could understand all this complex sounding strategy that goes into city defending and attacking. When I want to take something over, I make a 20 stack with 5 or so catapults and that always seems to work.

A 20 stack of what, exactly?

 

[dankok8]

While the OP suggests that the crossbowmen are underestimated, I think they are overestimated. Apart from the Chu-ko-nu which mind you is nothing like an ordinary crossbow (CGI, Drill I from protective as well as 1-2 first strikes + collateral damage), regular x-bows don't do anything better than macemen apart from being marginally better against other melee units. Macemen are better against any non-melee unit by a large margin and can get CR promotions. If you beeline Machinery they are highly effective against opponents who rely on classical age melee units, but even archers fortified in cities can give them trouble. Also, X-bows cost a lot (60h?) so producing them early en masse is not easy. If you want to see a beeline for crossbows and an early attack, take a look at

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=294342&highlight=Climb+Ladder from like p.6 or so on.

There, JTMacc99 does an X-bow rush on Noble level after getting Machinery from the Oracle.

 

[UWHabs]

I'd rather run a stack of all maces than all X-bows, but in a proper stack, you have some of everything in there. For me, if I was planning my "perfect" stack, you'd have a couple spears/pikes, a couple crossbows, a couple maces with shock or cover, and the rest would be my offense (so cats, trebs, CR maces, and maybe a few drill crossbows or muskets, if I've beelined gunpowder early).

 

[Willem]

I've found that the crossbowman makes an excellent shock troop. Never thought so before, until I played a game as China. Cho-Ku-Nu worked like a dream, and since then I've realize the Crossbowman is just generally a superior unit.

The Cho-Ku-Nu is not a typical Crossbowman however, it's a UU with special abilities. That said though, the Crossbowman definitely can be very useful in a stack, and especially as a defender. However, I wouldn't want to base my assault on them. One or two in a stack can be good, but not much more than that.

 

[Willem]

Crossbows can also upgrade to rifles.

Or Machine Guns. They're a great way to get a City Garrison Machine Gun.

 

[Ultraworld]

interesting exchange of arguments.

 

[Onionsoilder]

If you go straight for Machinery then Engineering, you can pump out Crossbows, Pikemen, and Trebuchets in-mass, which is quite a deadly combo. Xbows with the Drill line gain extra attacks and reduce collateral damage by quite a bit, making your SoD even more powerful.

 

[Supr49er]

Or Machine Guns. They're a great way to get a City Garrison Machine Gun.

I use CG Xbows promoted to MGs to defend my coastal cities against amphibious AI invasions.

 

[dankok8]

If you go straight for Machinery then Engineering, you can pump out Crossbows, Pikemen, and Trebuchets in-mass, which is quite a deadly combo. Xbows with the Drill line gain extra attacks and reduce collateral damage by quite a bit, making your SoD even more powerful.

That's not a bad combo, but I'd much rather have CRII Macemen and some CI/Shock macemen than DrillII X-bows. Unless you are sacrificing a lot of trebuchets (and they are not that cheap mind you), pikemen and X-bows will die in large numbers of longbows in cities. In other words, the hammer cost for such a war will be huge if your enemy has Feudalism. To get macemen, you just need to research CS which is a great tech regardless. A stack of X-bows and pikemen is pretty badass for pillaging though; very tough to stop especially if using defensive terrain. Maybe with CI/Cover macemen.

 

[Un Oso]

Trebs do just fine against longbowman, attack city with effective strength 8 plus city raider promo. Very good odds the Treb will survive. Second Treb has better odds, obviously. Now you've got a bunch of weakened longbowman to kill. Any moderate to high strength unit will do. But you want your army mobile and moving on to the next city quickly. You want a stock of shock troops with the drill promotion. Won't get that with Macemen.