[R&F] Cry of distress ;(

If you're not willing to declare on them, you'll just have to work on out-teching them. It is, however, sort of hard for a warmonger to beat builders at their own game.

How do you handle city-states, and how do they? I'm thinking they might be a good target for your warmongering, especially if you don't get as much advantage as your opponents...
 
Pillaging tiles at online speed is kinda risky. Don't forget that ur opponents can crank up a unit per turn or 2 per city in most cases. Building an army can be done in 3-4 turns only....not very much time to hit hard.

If we talk about pure warmongering, the best idea is to get horses as fast as possible. And conquer cities asap too. Speed is the essence of successful wars in mp.
 
I understand more how i should play, thank you all for your advices :D
By the way we are playing at normal speed for our game
 
I understand more how i should play, thank you all for your advices :D
By the way we are playing at normal speed for our game

Then you might want to pillage a bit. The science boost from comm. hubs come from the Medieval era dedication, not the class. era. My mistake. I edited my previous posts.
 
Ok guys i have a problem now. Yesterday i played again with friends and i declared war on the one that neved made war in his life (attacked at middle-age cause keshiks). He played Norway but only make science and campus, he didn't use langskip or berserker from the start. He took this really bad and now he's anger to me. The others gave me reason cause yeah war is part of the game but he won't hear nothing.

Now i made a deal with everyone. As they cannot trust me, there is no alliances possible to me.
That's the reputation i won/ that i am an absolute warmonger, if they spawn next to me they start immediately to fear me. I'm in a 1vALL mode now.

Should i stay hide in early game to avoid them to kill me ?
 
95% winrate here in 6-8 player games with random players in free-for-all, in at least 50 matches. I am going to assume you play on Online game speed, which is what my turn numbers correspond to.

Here are my tips:
1) Military
Horsemen and Cavalry are your primary units. Only build swordsmen if you REALLY have no horses. Do not build archers, ever. Crossbowmen are good on defense, but if you're on defense, you've lost the game already. So don't plan on building them either. Knights are ok, but the civic policy to boost their production speed tends to come later than when knights are unlocked. Never, ever build a unit without the policy to improve their production speed. I think you probably have a good grasp of military strategy already.

2) City Placement
Cities need food and production at a minimum. All plains? Not enough food. All grassland? Not enough production. The ideal location is jungle with grassland hills. Mines on hills + grassland for food should get you going smoothly. The single most common mistake is poor city placement; even the majority of players that I've seen who claim that they can "beat deity" do not put enough thought into this. Also, jungles and mountains are good for Campuses. For all of these reasons, avoid building cities next to water unless the land there is especially good.

3) Districts
In the current meta, the focus is on science. Science buys you better units and buildings, which you will need other districts to help support. But first and foremost is science. Below is my basic build for when I am resource-starved (i.e., bad start location). In better starts I can build far more districts.
- Capital: Campus -> Encampment -> Commercial Hub -> Theater Square
- 2nd City: Campus -> Encampment -> Commercial Hub
- 3rd City: Campus -> Commercial Hub -> Encampment
- 4th City and beyond: Commercial Hub -> Campus - Encampment
The reasoning for this is that you need at least three GOOD cities to be able to make expensive campus buildings like the university right away. Your later cities will need to prioritize gold from commercial hubs.

4) Opening Build Order
Capital: Scout/Warrior -> Scout/Warrior -> Settler -> Worker -> Settler -> Monument -> Worker -> Campus
Other Cities: Monument -> District

5) Miscellaneous Tips
- ALWAYS have your first city up by turn 25 (ideally turn 15-20), and by turn 50 you should have 5 cities up. By turn 80 you should have 7 cities and filled up all of the available good land.
- A general rule of thumb, on Online game speed, is that your science should at least equal (if not exceed) the turn counter. So by turn 50, you should be making at least 50 science per turn. Experienced players can make double this.
- Make a max of 1 worker per city until you get the Serfdom policy (the one that increases worker builds by +2)
- Once you get Serfdom, spam workers to build lumber mills on your forests. This is an important reason NOT to chop your forests early on (see below).
- At the highest level of multiplayer play, it is actually not beneficial to chop all of the resources in your land. Briefly, the reason is that it does not translate into long-term science gains. You get a lot of production early on to build units or buildings, but your science and production will be slowed later on due to weaker cities. If you're chopping your resources and forests, you had better be conquering the guy next to you within 30 turns and taking over his cities. This is not the ticket to victory as many people claim. People will engage in endless discussions over this, but that's my perspective.
- Always have scouts on the edge of your borders to watch for sneak attacks. Humans are nasty.
- Ally with science, economic, and military city-states.
- 80% of techs up until the industrial age should be researched only after getting the Eureka. You should almost never pay full cost for a tech.
- Culture is important but less important than science. If your science is bad, I don't care what your culture is. You will lose. Everything in your empire needs to be thrown at science, and then you can think about getting your culture up. Monuments and maybe one or two Theater Squares are enough for the first 70 turns. Just try to get Divine Right (for the civic policy that increases knight/cavalry production speed) by about turn 60.
- Religion: Don't go for it unless you are a very experienced player. Practice getting science first.

6) Finally, do not build something just because it's cheap. Besides poor city placement, this is the most common error I've noticed among all players. They go through their cities making the cheapest building first, thinking that it will start to benefit them sooner than building an expensive building. In what kind of world did the best build order just magically happen to go from cheapest to most expensive in perfect order? If you find yourself just making the cheapest buildings first, 99% of the time it means you have no strategy. Think in terms of goals.
- For example, think about what you need to be able to get Cavalry by turn 75. You need at least 5 cities with campuses, libraries, and universities. You will need the commercial hubs to get enough gold to afford their upkeep. You will need the Encampments with barracks to build them quickly. Let me tell you, 75 turns is NOT a lot of time. You do NOT have time to make random unrelated stuff like industrial zones. You don't have time to make enough workers to improve every tile. You definitely do not have time to build more than 1 or 2 theater squares. But guess what, your strategy didn't call for that stuff. Your friend who made everything in the order that it was unlocked won't even have Knights by turn 75. But this is how you win games.


Add me on Steam: sahinthefalcon
I am happy to help and talk some more because it really seems like you want to learn.
 
I don’t play multiplayer much (ie. 1 game), and certainly can’t argue with your success rate. I agree in theory with everything you said for the MP arena. I wonder, however, if your focus on encampment districts beyond the first 2 (or 3) might be a bit overzealous? I can't come up with a need for them. Can you provide the rationale?

You build matrix:

- Capital: Campus -> Encampment -> Commercial Hub -> Theater Square
- 2nd City: Campus -> Encampment -> Commercial Hub
- 3rd City: Campus -> Commercial Hub -> Encampment
- 4th City and beyond: Commercial Hub -> Campus – Encampment

I would amend as follows:

- Capital: Campus -> Encampment -> Commercial Hub -> Units…
- 2nd City: Campus -> Encampment -> Commercial Hub -> Units…
- 3rd City: Campus -> Commercial Hub -> Theatre Square
- 4th City and beyond: Commercial Hub -> Campus – Theatre Square

Theatre Squares would get you to corps and armies in a more timely manner and allow you to faith buy units in your primary encampment districts with armories and/or military academies as well as producing units in those locations as well.

You could also do this:

- Capital: Campus -> Encampment -> Commercial Hub -> Units…
- 2nd City: Campus -> Encampment -> Commercial Hub -> Units…
- 3rd City: Campus -> Commercial Hub -> Holy Site
- 4th City and beyond: Commercial Hub -> Campus – Holy Site

Holy Sites could get you Choral Music as well as provide faith for unit buys in your main encampment districts.
 
Last edited:
@BarbarianHunter

I agree, units are always first priority whenever there is a threat or there is an opportunity for easy conquest. All district construction must be halted in those cases. It is also more important to complete the buildings under each district before starting construction on the next district. Realistically, it will be around turn 60 before your first few cities are completing their 3rd or 4th district. After some trial and error, however, I consider the encampment important for several reasons:
1) It allows you to maintain a much smaller standing army. Cities with encampments and walls are difficult to take and act as a deterrent. This saves a tremendous amount of gold, allowing me to build fewer commercial hubs than the average player.
2) It is nearly impossible to quickly build an army of Cavalry or more expensive units without encampments. In a late game war (say around turn 100), when there are only 2 or 3 players left and each player has 10+ cities, you must mobilize your entire empire for war. I will say that when in doubt, I do have a tendency to more encampments. It's very, very difficult to lose a game if you have a lot of military production, even in the nightmare scenario where your opponent's units are one age ahead.

I agree that the 4th city and beyond can focus on culture if science generation is sufficient. Ultimately even your first 3 cities can have theater squares. Corps are extremely expensive to afford before turn 80-100 because they cost double the upkeep while only benefiting once from the civic policy that decreases unit upkeep.

Religion became really tricky and luck-based once R&F came out. Although religion was ostensibly buffed by giving it more options, moving the ability to faith buy from theocracy to the upgraded government plaza was a huge inconvenience. You already have to make more total districts with a religion strategy. The government plaza is not worth it if you don't get a nice spawn with a huge amount of land for you to spam settlers. But going holy sites STILL obliges you to make campuses, commercial hubs, encampments, and theater squares (if you didn't get choral music). Yeah, you might be able to get the dark age science policy (but what if you didn't get a dark age?). Yeah, you might save a bit of time here and there by using Jesuit Education to faith buy universities (but what if someone else snatched Jesuit Education first?). It's still doable but I tend to use it as a strategy of last resort now, usually for situations where I've only discovered religion city-states around me.
 
@BarbarianHunter

This saves a tremendous amount of gold, allowing me to build fewer commercial hubs than the average player.
2) It is nearly impossible to quickly build an army of Cavalry or more expensive units without encampments. In a late game war (say around turn 100), when there are only 2 or 3 players left and each player has 10+ cities, you must mobilize your entire empire for war. I will say that when in doubt, I do have a tendency to more encampments. It's very, very difficult to lose a game if you have a lot of military production, even in the nightmare scenario where your opponent's units are one age ahead.

Makes more than a little sense for MP.

Religion became really tricky and luck-based once R&F came out. Although religion was ostensibly buffed by giving it more options, moving the ability to faith buy from theocracy to the upgraded government plaza was a huge inconvenience. You already have to make more total districts with a religion strategy. The government plaza is not worth it if you don't get a nice spawn with a huge amount of land for you to spam settlers. But going holy sites STILL obliges you to make campuses, commercial hubs, encampments, and theater squares (if you didn't get choral music). Yeah, you might be able to get the dark age science policy (but what if you didn't get a dark age?). Yeah, you might save a bit of time here and there by using Jesuit Education to faith buy universities (but what if someone else snatched Jesuit Education first?). It's still doable but I tend to use it as a strategy of last resort now, usually for situations where I've only discovered religion city-states around me.

Yeah. I can see not building a govt. plaza at all and just carrying on with the business of warring. And there are allot of if's with religion. I used to enjoy the religious warlord game w/ theocracy pre R&F (especially w/ Saladin), but now I rarely play it. I just can't seem to get it to come together like before the expansion came out (I think because I have to build the govt plaza now). Before I knew what I had to do, build Holy Sites, beeline Theocracy, and start summoning units. I think holy site buildings were zero gold maintenance pre R&F also. So, yeah. The holy site/choral music thing may not be such a good idea.

Cheers!
 
Last edited:
I personnally don't like the campus first strat for all cities. The science curve is too linear. I perfer the exponential one, starting from the medieval era. It means building comm. hubs first for your first 3-4 cities excepted one with best adjacent bonus.

In most games i play with science zealots i often see that i can still follow them in that domain despite having 15-20% less science. Probably because they can't leverage eurekas in time.

Typical game observed:

Turn 40: opponent- 30 sci, me- 22 sci
Turn 50: opponent- 45 sci, me- 32 sci
Turn 60: opponent- 55 sci, me- 70 sci( dedication giving science from comm. hubs)
Turn 70: opponent- 70 sci, me- 140 sci

Also, having 5 cities by turn 50 isn't enough. Try to have them around turn 35 it's way better.

Keeping forests is ok if you lack of production and are riversided. Otherwise, chop everything. Knight rush can be done if you follow the comm hubs strat. Having 500-600 gold around the turn 52-55 with mercenaries discovered can give you 9-10 knights ready for war. Neglecting archers is also a bad idea, especially that they can easily be upgraded to xbows with knights for support(easy to get a great general for extra step).
 
I personnally don't like the campus first strat for all cities. The science curve is too linear. I perfer the exponential one, starting from the medieval era. It means building comm. hubs first for your first 3-4 cities excepted one with best adjacent bonus.

In most games i play with science zealots i often see that i can still follow them in that domain despite having 15-20% less science. Probably because they can't leverage eurekas in time.

Typical game observed:

Turn 40: opponent- 30 sci, me- 22 sci
Turn 50: opponent- 45 sci, me- 32 sci
Turn 60: opponent- 55 sci, me- 70 sci( dedication giving science from comm. hubs)
Turn 70: opponent- 70 sci, me- 140 sci

Also, having 5 cities by turn 50 isn't enough. Try to have them around turn 35 it's way better.

Keeping forests is ok if you lack of production and are riversided. Otherwise, chop everything. Knight rush can be done if you follow the comm hubs strat. Having 500-600 gold around the turn 52-55 with mercenaries discovered can give you 9-10 knights ready for war. Neglecting archers is also a bad idea, especially that they can easily be upgraded to xbows with knights for support(easy to get a great general for extra step).

Good to see you Tabarnak! You gave me one of my toughest challenges in recent memory. I have a lot of respect for the quality of your play. Do you remember this game?

Spoiler :
5E11D28C01AFE7980F8F8BD545C0F74FAB6E879C


Spoiler :
73855FECDEB2ABAD734ECE83F4C63B3E022A9AA2


Anyway, you are 100% correct that science follows an exponential curve. 80-90% of the total science gained in one match happens in the last half of the game. Being 6 or 8 techs ahead in the medieval era only translates to 1 or 2 techs ahead in the modern era. I used fairly conservative numbers in my guidelines, so that I could state it definitively as a minimum count for almost any situation. Certainly it is ideal to have more cities up sooner.

In my experience, I often do tend to lack enough forests for my liking. However, my main issue with chopping is that production costs in the industrial age and onwards increase drastically without any significant compensatory mechanisms to increase city production at the same time. In other words, your units might double in cost in the late game, but your cities are certainly not doubling in production. Combined with the increasing difficulty of taking cities in the late game, I tend to play my early game more conservatively and save my forests, unless there is an easy target to conquer with which I could double the size of my empire.

Knight rush from upgraded chariots is a good strat if there is an ideal conquest target. I used to do it a lot, but I find that knights are too difficult to replace because divine right (for the medieval age cavalry production policy) is almost never researched by the time knights are unlocked. If there is a very weak opponent next to me I'll do it, but I usually prefer not to bet my entire game on a blitzkrieg with irreplaceable units.
 
Yeah i remember this game! One of best games i played last year. It was a 2vs1 though so that wasnt easy at all of course...I played badly at the end too, scrapping any hope to come back. I learned a lot from you too as well from it.

Your Shaka on steroïds was a bit too much for me combined with the annoying Japan. I remember that i went for planes and turned into a fiasco :lol:

Let's play another soon if you can?
 
Sure, I'll add you on Steam. Not much free time right now but maybe sometime over the next few months.
 
They build it and you take it. That's how warmongers prosper.

Pillage every mine you get near and you will catch up in Science. Also every Campus.

Punch a hole into their civilization then let it flip to a Free City. While they deal with the chaos you can close the development gap.
 
Ok so i don't want to dig up the topic, but could i ask for a recapitulation ?
SahintheFalcon have the plan that seems fitting me the most, but i didn't truly understood BarbarianHunter opinion : is theatre square are this important ? I never care about culture when i play gengis.
In my capital , i'm always doing : Campus->Encampment->Comm.hub->Industrial zone
Usually when we i conquer bot they got the theater squares and holy site so i TRULY don't care about culture
 
Ok so i don't want to dig up the topic, but could i ask for a recapitulation ?
SahintheFalcon have the plan that seems fitting me the most, but i didn't truly understood BarbarianHunter opinion : is theatre square are this important ? I never care about culture when i play gengis.
In my capital , i'm always doing : Campus->Encampment->Comm.hub->Industrial zone
Usually when we i conquer bot they got the theater squares and holy site so i TRULY don't care about culture
Keshig corps and armies are important for late game blitzkrieging. You will need to get battering rams and siege towers next to cities in a timely manner so as to have your knights/tanks take down cities, sequentially, 1..2..3...If your keshig units are solo, they'll get killed off more easily, and then where will you be? Stuck with only knights or tanks. Come to think of it, maybe theatre squares are not all that important after all.
 
You can also read the great MP guide from JustifierNA. He seems to prioritize commercial hubs over anything else for the first stages, mainly because this brings more buff to your empire, especially gold and production.
 
After my latest Frederick game where I built CH in every city to be prepped for all the Hansas and then took the Medieval golden age that gives CH bonuses as science as well - my science was turbocharged for that era - I'm psyched to try that even if I'm not Frederick. And Medieval is the easiest golden age to get, by taking the Science one in Classical that gives you 1 era score for every eureka. With this approach you only need campuses towards the end of Medieval to get prepped for when the boost goes away.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom