CS Slingshot, is it worth it?

[sigmakan]

In almost all my games I try to perform the CS slingshot, but lately I have wondered if its really worth it. I am sure many of you are familiar with this gambit and the extensive cost of researching CoL. Depending on city resources, CoL takes between 25 and 40 turns (on epic). Also, in order to build the oracle before anyone else does, one must often beeline for CoL and ignore many of the other techs. Often I find myself neglecting Agriculture, Masonry, Pottery, etc. just so I can pull off the timing of the CS slingshot.

Now my question is, is it worth it? wouldn't it be more beneficial to tech the worker techs so that your civilization improves more? I understand that CS allows for chain farming, maceman, and bureacracy, but is it worth it? Chain farming is only useful for those cities that are severly lacking a food source, maceman still require machinery, and is bureacracy really that good?

Perhaps I am going through the tech tree wrong. My usual path is BW>AH>Writting>Myst>Med>Priest>CoL so as you can see, I am neglecting almost all of the worker techs(although I usually slip Wheel in there, thats kinda important lol).

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! I am a noob(just started playing on noble), so perhaps I don't fully understand the pros/cons of this gambit.

 

[DeafDolphin]

Like every other strategy, it depends on your setup and how you want to play the game.

The CS gambit is a a gamble worth taking, particularly if you have a food resource that isn't next to a fresh water source (I.E., you have a river 2 tiles west of your city, and wheat resource one tile east of your city). I usually don't take the slingshot attempt unless I need CS that early. I prefer to go for Iron Working or early worker techs and charge after my nearest opponents just to get some breathing room to work with.

I would only go for it if I needed CS that early and I'm in a truly crappy position.

Bureaucracy can be a real godsend in a war. In the only game I've gone for the CS slingshot, I played as Catherine. Bureaucracy really helped my capitol pump out units to wipe out every other civ nearby.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I've found three opening strategies that seem to propel you ahead. CS Slingshot can really get early research going. With a philosophical civ you can try and get Pyramids and run a lot of specialists early. And an early rush to take an enemy capital. Of the three the CS slingshot is less situational esp at levels below Monarch when you can pretty much rely on it 100% of the time. And it really delivers a big boost.

I think the big problem with your approach is going through animal husbandry to writing rather than pottery. Wiith pottery your worker can be building cottages to speed the research towards COL. And when you get CS, your cottages will have grown enough for your capital to be a research powerhouse with bureaucracy.

 

[DaviddesJ]

If you're playing at Noble because you have a hard time beating the game at higher difficulties, then I would suggest you ignore the CS slingshot. Using it won't help you much as you move to higher difficulties, because it gets harder and harder to do. It's really a technique that makes the most sense for strong players who have an easy time beating the game at low levels, but who want to do so especially quickly, for some reason.

Just mastering the "basics" of Civ4 will do a lot more for your game.

 

[DaveMcW]

...and is bureacracy really that good?

Yes. +50% to production, research, and science buildings in your best city. For optimum results you want your first GP to be a scientist and build an academy.

I would also slip pottery into the beeline so you can start building up the commerce before you switch.

 

[Sisiutil]

Since moving from Noble to Prince I've given up on it; I tried a couple of times but the AI beat me to the Oracle each time. I have pretty regular success with the more modest but still valuable Code of Laws slingshot.

This is not to say it isn't desireable. Once I learned of it and started doing it on Noble, it gave me a huge early boost in the game, since my capital was almost always my main commerce/science city. It pretty much guaranteed a tech lead for the rest of the game. Getting Metal Casting and Machinery after that to unlock Macemen is much faster and easier, and other civs' best unit is likely still an Axe or Sword.

I agree with going the Pottery rather than the AH route, though. Cottages are essential to reap the benefits of CS.

 

[Naismith]

I've neglected to study any of the slingshot techniques. It's mostly laziness, I suppose. Also, my experience playing Civ3 was that you had to practice a lot of self-denial when it came to building wonders as you moved up the levels. It's not like I'm playing at Deity or something. I've played mostly Prince and lately a bit of Monarch. I suspect I won't go above Monarch, I'm just not ambitious enough.

Here's my (naive) question: If you don't research Alphabet early, don't you lose out on trading opportunites? In other words, you won't have as long between the time you research Alphabet and the AI's research it, which is a time where you can make some very advantageous tech trades.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

After a CS slighshot and switch to Bureaucracy you can still beat the AI to Alphabet (at Monarch anyway which is as high as I go) which you can research much faster. You then do a lot of trading getting the techs you missed along the way but avoiding trading alphabet or CS.

Getting to Alphabet earlier can get you other worker techs earlier, but isn't going to give you as big a boost as you can still get those techs with a later alphabet (by which time you will have met more civs to trade with).

The danger of the CS slingshot is not that it slows down alphabet, but that you can get killed while you are building the Oracle and that you may miss out on getting the Oracle which then leaves you well behind.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I never get it how people delay worker techs.
I always research them first ti improve my land as soon as possible, and after the CS slingshot I go straight for machinery...

 

[pigswill]

I've got into the habit of playing a variant CS Slingshot: Oracle for CoL, Prophet for CS. This gives me plenty of time to research worker techs first.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I've got into the habit of playing a variant CS Slingshot: Oracle for CoL, Prophet for CS. This gives me plenty of time to research worker techs first.

That's exactly what I do since I moved up to Monarch.

 

[sigmakan]

I've got into the habit of playing a variant CS Slingshot: Oracle for CoL, Prophet for CS. This gives me plenty of time to research worker techs first.

That's an interesting idea, I'll definately have to try it out in the future.

Also, thanks everyone for your input

 

[theimmortal1]

I think I'm gonna try a Paper slingshot on Monarch tonight. This will be pretty tough but it'll help me big time in the 1200-1300's. I'll easily get liberalism first. I think it shoulnd't be too hard, if I am a phil civ and I steal a worker. I just gotta get stonehenge asap.

 

[armstrong]

I've got into the habit of playing a variant CS Slingshot: Oracle for CoL, Prophet for CS. This gives me plenty of time to research worker techs first.

Yes, this is a great way to do things, as you don't need to risk missing founding Code of Laws as well. I did just this in the most recent GOTM, actually

One CS "sling" I've found recently is through Great Merchants. If you have a coastal city (and it helps if you're philosophical) you can build the Great Lighthouse to get the great merchant ball running. Great Merchants can be used to research Metal Casting (early Colossus for good water tiles & more GM points), Currency (market, can run two merchant specialists), and Civil Service. You can completely neglect the religious path, and instead go Writing -> Math -> Currency -> Code of Laws -> Civil Service (using GM's to research a lot of it.)

Even on Monarch, it's almost impossible to get beat to the Great Lighthouse if you start building it after two settlers, and it's hard to lose the Colossus unless someone uses the Oracle to research Metal Casting.

It's a bit slower than a "pure" religious CS slingshot, but those techs all help your economy. You'll end up with with a bureaucratic capital with 4 trade routes and tons of 2F3C (or 2F4C if you're financial) tiles to work and only one tech left to go to Macemen. With a city like that, who needs cottages?

Even better, the GM city you've established can continue to pump out Great Merchants for trade missions that let you run 100% more often to get more out of your bureaucratic capital.

 

[Andrei_V]

I think on Monarch level it is worth in an isolated start, such as Archipelago. In this case you can delay several techs that you normally need in a crowded Pangaea map. (In the latter case I would really really prefer to get BW -> IW -> Construction as a highest priority.)

A good starting location would be the one with a seafood resource or two, and at least 2-3 hills around the capital. Then you build work boat -> worker -> settler -> Oracle.

The tech path (for Tokugawa, he starts with Fishing and The Wheel, but no Mining) is something like :
Pottery -> Mining -> Mysticism -> [Masonry] -> Writing -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> [Bronze Working] -> CoL -> CS with Oracle.

If you don't have Marble, skip Masonry. If you build faster than research, skip BW. If you still build faster, build library first. If you have another food resource, such as Corn or Deer, research the tech (Agriculture or Hunting). Animal Husbandry is generally not worth researching that early.

On Epic speed the Oracle should be completed around or before 900BC, after that there is a big risk to get beaten by the AI.

After that I usually go Mathematics -> Sailing -> Alphabet -> Literature, and build the GL. At this point I normally have more than enough techs for trading.

On Emperor level you need a real good starting location. I did it only once, having 3 gems on grassland (no jungle) tiles within the fat cross of my capital.

 

[Howitzah]

I actually just completed my first CS slingshot, and boy did it help me.

The setup:

North of me was Mansa, who I shared religions with, he was a good friend. After I got BW, TW, and Pottery I beelined straight for the slingshot. Thanks to my 6 floodplain city covered with cottages I got to CoL with plenty of time to spare. With the slingshot completed I talked to Mansa, and traded off for all the lower techs, and got a pretty good deal from it. I didn't however trade him CS. I went straight for machinery, pumped out Macemen, and killed Mansa soon after.

I've only met half the Civs so far, but among the known ones I have on most of them a six tech lead.

 

[BadHorsie]

I've got into the habit of playing a variant CS Slingshot: Oracle for CoL, Prophet for CS. This gives me plenty of time to research worker techs first.

Interesting approach, but I think you may miss out on a religious building if you founded one/any. I wil give that a go though, I think.

 

[Grogs]

I've got into the habit of playing a variant CS Slingshot: Oracle for CoL, Prophet for CS. This gives me plenty of time to research worker techs first.

There is a caveat to this approach though. You must have researched both Meditation and Polytheism, but you can't research masonry before you get the Great Prophet. Otherwise, the GP will discover Monotheism instead of Civil Service.

 

[pigswill]

That's true even if I didn't spell it out in my first post. Then again my current favourite starting strategy (on prince) is CoL/CS slingshot (getting confucianism in the process), start spreading confucianism, head along the literature track, stopping off to trade/research masonry and monotheism ready for my next Prophet and theology slingshot; and often try for athird prophet for the shrine. I'm not saying its the best strategy and I'm sure it wouldn't work at more difficult levels but its my favourite at present.
It does of course speed things up to get more prophet points in the Oracle city (either stonehenge or temple; I could go for shrine first for additional specialists but that would depend on having spare food for more specialists and would require 3 Prophets before getting theology slingshot).

 

[Gumbolt]

I assume CS is civil service? Its not too clear from start of thread for newbies.