CS Slingshot, is it worth it?

[Sisiutil]

I'm just now realizing the value of the tech tree's southern slingshots, variations on the CoL and CS: use the Oracle to get either Metal Casting (higher levels) or Machinery (lower levels).

This can be very useful if your civ has a UU which, directly (Cho Ko Nu) or indirectly (Redcoats) has these techs as requirements/prerequisites.

 

[Shoot the Moon]

To quote a former foreign minister and vice chancelor: "I am not convinced".
Early worker techs will speed up you initial expansion and wonder-building. It is better to delay Alphabet, the AI seems to neglect it always (except Gandhi for some reason).

What level do you play ?

I normally do that strategy no higher than Prince. By the time I get alpahbet I will have at most two workers (depends on whether you start with mysticism and the tiles you work). You don't lose that much. After I get CS, if I beeline to machinery, I can have a small to moderate stack of macemen by 0AD. The space you lost because of a slow expansion is then easily made up by easy capturing of cities.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Macemen by year zero...have to try this in my next game.

 

[Andrei_V]

Actually, if you research Alphabet after CS and running Bureaucracy already, things will be faster a little bit. It will basically take about 2/3 of pre-Bureacracy research time, since most (if not all) of your science comes from the capital's commerce.

On Monarch level if you do not skip Alphabet, you have a lot greater chance to be beaten by the AI.

 

[Thalatta]

The research percent is listed at 115 on Monarch - I assume the AI is still at 100, if not better? If so, then "equal" tech trades are always in your favor. If you pull off the CS slingshot on Monarch (I tried it last night to see if/when could do it - 940 BC; I had to skip bronze working and a couple other techs) you should be able to pick up at least bronze working and possibly iron working or metal casting (put that missionary to good use to free it up), giving you a clear route to early machinery and macemen.

 

[Andrei_V]

Just gave it a try. Map setting: Tokugawa, Standard Archipelago, 7 random AIs, Epic speed, the rest is default.

Got 6 floodplains, 1 fish, 1 cow.

Build: Work Boat -> Worker -> another Work Boat (for exploration, circumnavigation etc) -> 2 warriors for fog busting -> Oracle.

Research: Pottery (cottages on floodplains, then a mine) -> Mining -> Mysticism -> Polytheism (founded Hinduism in 2650 BC) -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Code of Laws.

Finished CoL in 1150 BC, one turn after the Oracle is completed, got Civil Service (1120 BC).

Now, Bronze Working (need Slavery ASAP to settle 3 more cities on my island) -> Alphabet -> Iron Working (found Iron near one of my cities) -> Literature (Start GL) -> Metal Casting -> Machinery (155 AD).

So, by 200AD I have 4 decent cities, Iron, Horses, Ivory, and the GL will be completed in something like 12 turns. I can start the conquest as soon as I build Forges, Granaries and Barracks everywhere. The game is basically won.

 

[cabert]

Just gave it a try. Map setting: Tokugawa, Standard Archipelago, 7 random AIs, Epic speed, the rest is default.

Got 6 floodplains, 1 fish, 1 cow.

Build: Work Boat -> Worker -> another Work Boat (for exploration, circumnavigation etc) -> 2 warriors for fog busting -> Oracle.

Research: Pottery (cottages on floodplains, then a mine) -> Mining -> Mysticism -> Polytheism (founded Hinduism in 2650 BC) -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Code of Laws.

Finished CoL in 1150 BC, one turn after the Oracle is completed, got Civil Service (1120 BC).

Now, Bronze Working (need Slavery ASAP to settle 3 more cities on my island) -> Alphabet -> Iron Working (found Iron near one of my cities) -> Literature (Start GL) -> Metal Casting -> Machinery (155 AD).

So, by 200AD I have 4 decent cities, Iron, Horses, Ivory, and the GL will be completed in something like 12 turns. I can start the conquest as soon as I build Forges, Granaries and Barracks everywhere. The game is basically won.

you see this a little easily i fear.
What ships do you have?
archipelago isn't a warmonger's map, remember

 

[Andrei_V]

you see this a little easily i fear.
What ships do you have?
archipelago isn't a warmonger's map, remember

Well, I do my warmongering precisely on Archipelago, mostly.

I have Galleys, it is more than enough before Astronomy.

Actually, Archipelago is quite easy for warmongering, AI is completely dumb here. I can clearly foresee that I'll win this game before Rifling or shortly after.

 

[Andrei_V]

All right, I keep trying. Second attempt. Same settings (I forgot to tell, it's Monarch level).

This time I got no fish, 1 cow, 2 calendar resources (Spices), a few forests, hills, and a river. A real small island, there is only a tiny appendage on the North for the second city with a hill and two Spices. No seafood either.

Build: Worker (build cottages on the Spices tiles for 3C, then mines and roads) -> Work Boat (exploration, circumnavigation, etc) -> Warrior -> Oracle.

Research: Pottery -> Mining -> Mysticism -> Polytheism (no Hinduism this time) -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Code of Laws.

Finished in 1090 BC, the same turn with Oracle (I micromanaged a bit, switching from mines to sea tiles). Founded Confucianism, got CS from the Oracle.

BW -> Alphabet -> Literature (Start GL) -> Metal Casting -> Machinery.

By 5AD no Iron or Copper nearby, not even decent islands just to found one or two more cities, the AI beats me to the GL, the Machinery will be researched in about 10 turns.

This one turns out to be more tricky, as I have to secure Iron first, and I have only 2 cities. The plan is to research Construction next, meanwhile build a few Galleys to explore nearby civ's cities, which one has Iron. Then build some cats and Archers and capture it ASAP.

Anyway, I'll keep trying to get CS Slingshot on Monarch with this map setting, just to see how often I can get it. If somebody wants to check out my save games, I can post them.

 

[Andrei_V]

Third attempt. This time I got 1 rice, 2 Dyes, no seafood, hills and forests. Large continent, I am somewhere in the middle, Huayna in the South. I'm cutting him access to the northen part, it's deserts but with some nice resources, cows, sheep, 2 gold, some calendar resources, seafood. There are at least 4 good spots for the cities.

the Incan part is mostly jungle, real good after cleaning up.

Not the best start for the CS Slingshot (calls for an early Axemen rush), but I'll try anyway.

Build: Worker (build two cottages on Dyes, after Calendar I'll replace one with plantation, farm on Rice, and Mines) -> Work Boat (exploration) -> Warrior -> Warrior (I expect some barbs) -> Oracle.

Research: Pottery -> Agriculture -> Mining -> Mysticism -> Polytheism (no Hinduism) -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Code of Laws.

Finished in 835 BC, same turn as the Oracle (micromanaged again). Confucianism, CS.

Now: BW -> Alphabet -> Literature -> Metal Casting -> Construction.

Luckily found Copper on the North, but no Iron. Huayna has Iron and Horses, but no Copper. I met so far only Peter (besides Huayna, of course). Traded a lot, got Calendar, Math, Monarchy, IW.

Since I have no Iron, I decided to go for Construction before Machinery, and fight Incas ASAP. Huayna is annoyed with me and does not want to trade techs.

As of 380 AD I have 4 cities. The one with Copper is "marginal", it just works the Copper mine and does not grow. However, I built Barracks there, and it will produce a few Axes.

The rest are busy with Axes, and I am one turn short of Construction. I need a couple of cats and spears to counter Huayna's Horse Archers, then I'm ready to attack.

I expect conquering Huayna will take a while, but after that I'll own a huge continent of 10 cities or so all on my own.

 

[Andrei_V]

Fourth attempt. Cow and Corn, forests, hills, no seafood, nothing special. Large continent, no AI neighbors. Not enough good tiles for cottages, but there is a Gold 3 tiles away. I need a settler ASAP, then I can work this mine for extra commerce. A strategic decision: I'll build a cottage on 3F cow resource, then replace it with a pasture as soon as I trade for AH after Alphabet.

Build: Worker -> Warrior (barbs are coming soon) -> Settler -> Work Boat (exploration) -> Oracle

Research: Pottery (found it in a hut 6 turns after) -> Agriculture -> Mining -> Mysticism -> Polytheism (no Hinduism) -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Code of Laws

Finished in 985 BC (Confucianism), on the next turn - Oracle (CS).

BW -> Alphabet -> Iron Working (found Iron near the capital) -> Literature (start GL) -> Metal Casting -> Machinery (finished 320 AD) -> Construction.

GL built in Kyoto in 65 AD. Shortly after a Prophet pops up for the Kong Miao in my second city near the gold mine.

As of 320 AD I am producing my first Samurai. I have 6 cities, the last one on a small island near the capital, nice place with 2 seafood, 2 mines and a couple of forests. Future Navy factory.

Victoria settled two cities on my continent, one in the North (near a Gems/jungle), another one in the South. I think I'll leave her alone for a while, let her improve the land around her cities, then capture them. We are of the same faith (she adopted Confucianism) and have good relations.

So, I think I can just start a war overseas. Possible targets are Hatty and Louis, there is also Ghandy on the North, but he is small and weak, and more than willing to tech trade with me. This game is also basically won already.

 

[DaviddesJ]

So, by 200AD I have 4 decent cities, Iron, Horses, Ivory, and the GL will be completed in something like 12 turns. I can start the conquest as soon as I build Forges, Granaries and Barracks everywhere. The game is basically won.

At Monarch, isn't the game "basically won" in 4000 BC?

 

[Andrei_V]

Ok, Fifth Attempt. Got 2 seafood, 2 tiles lake, hills, forests. I decided to move the settler 1 tile NE to the next forested hill, this way I still have 2 seafood, 2 lake, but in addition I get 2 more hills, and a calendar resource (Spices on plains, 1F-2H-1C raw.)

Real large continent, more like a "snaky" continent, extending South-East from me. Hatty my closest neighbor from the South, far SE there lives Julius. (Also calls for an early rush, not for Slingshots. )

I'm cutting them a little space for 1 city with Gold, Cow, plenty of grassland and some hills. I think I'll build a city there before going for CS Slingshot. Right on the South from my capital there is another spot with 1 cow 2 gold, but it is otherwise a desert, except some sea tiles. I'll let Hatty settle there.

Build: Work Boat -> Worker -> Warrior -> Work Boat -> Settler -> Oracle

Research: Pottery -> Mining -> Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Code of Laws.

As of 1090 BC somebody beats me to the Oracle, I'm 5 turns away. No Confucianism founded, though, so I still have a chance.

Maybe I shouldn't have built that second city, I could just let my capital grow and work lake tiles (plus one cottage) for commerce and mines for production.

I believe the game is not lost, though. The next tech is obviously BW, then IW, if no Copper nearby. Then Alphabet (trade for Masonry and Math) -> Construction. My second city just produced a Work boat for exploration, searching for islands with strategic resources.

 

[Andrei_V]

At Monarch, isn't the game "basically won" in 4000 BC?

Chances are that it is not. But you're right, it is really really hard to lose it. On Archipelago, anyway. I'm thinking of moving from Emperor to Immortal now.

 

[Andrei_V]

Sixth attempt. 2 seafood, 2 Ivory, 2 hills/plains, 2 forests, plenty of grassland, rivers. A compact island for 2 or 3 more cities, but only one of them is comparatively good. Jungles almost everywhere, including on 4 more Ivory resources, but luckily not in the fat cross.

Build: Work boat -> Worker -> Warrior -> Work boat -> Work boat -> Work boat -> Warrior -> Oracle.

Research: Hunting -> Mining -> Pottery -> Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Code of Laws.

I'm building a way faster than researching. I should have built cottages first, then mines and the Ivory Camp. The Oracle is about to complete 6 turns before CoL, so I switch temporarily to Settler.

A turn before CoL I switch back to Oracle, got both in 955 BC.

The rest is usual: BW -> Alphabet -> Literature -> Metal Casting -> Machinery (215 AD) -> Construction (350 AD) -> Theology

As of 440 AD, 5 cities. Iron near the capital, 2 Copper on a nearby island, settle 2 cities there, they both have mines and seafood plus a calendar resource.

Met all other AIs with my workboats, circumnavigated the globe, built Kong Miao, lost GL to Elizabeth, built Colossus, started Hanging Gardens (will take 16 turns). Built some 5 or 6 workers to clear the jungles. Ready to produce Samurais and Cats.

 

[Andrei_V]

Seventh attempt. The worst start for the Slingshot I've ever seen. Plains all around, a Cow (on plains), a Wine (on plains), a single clear grassland tile, and several forests on grassland. No food for growth, too few tiles for cottages.

Compact island, two or three more cities, Ivory, nothing special.

All right, going for AH for 1 additional food does not make sense, besides, there is no tiles for cottages except that cow and the grassland. I need BW to chop some forests (for the Granary, obviously).

Build: Worker -> Work Boat (exploration) -> Granary -> Warrior -> Work Boat (nothing else to do so far) -> Oracle (finally).

Research: Pottery -> Mining -> Bronze Working -> Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Code of Laws.

As of 1480 BC the AI beats me to the Oracle. I just finished Writing and started CoL.

All right, one could expect to be beaten by AI to the Oracle on such a desperate starting location, but SO EARLY?!

 

[Andrei_V]

Eighth attempt. Two seafood, 1 Wine on plains, 1 lake, forests, hills. Small island for 2 cities, the second city spot has Gold, Pigs, plenty of grassland. Calls for building the second city before going for the Slingshot.

Build: Work boat -> Worker -> Warrior -> Work boat -> Settler -> Oracle

Research: Pottery -> Mining -> Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Code of Laws

CoL finished in 1150 BC (Confucianism), Oracle 3 turns later, in 1060 BC.

This time I was researching a little faster than building, because of the Gold, I suppose. Such a second city for Gold (Silver/Gems) mine is well worth the time spent on its Settler, but you need to start working on the mine right away, without waiting until it grows.

I built a Work boat for exploration in the second city (later than usual), so it just started exploring nearby islands and did not meet any AIs so far.

BW -> Alphabet -> Sailing -> Iron Working -> Literature -> Hunting -> Animal Husbandry -> Monotheism -> Metal Casting -> Machinery (305 AD) -> Construction

I am researching a lot of old techs just because I could not trade for them. The first AIs I met (Hatty and Louis) do not want to trade with me even after I gifted them Writing. Fortunately, Mansa appeared, and we traded quite a bit.

As of 320 AD, I have 4 cities, Copper (just need to build the mine), Horses (pasture is being built), but no Iron. I can see an island with Iron (got a map from a hut), but I did not find the passage. I'm trying to scout Hatty's territory, if she has some Iron, she'll be my next target.

I built the GL and Kong Miao.

 

[Lord Chambers]

Keep us updated!

 

[Andrei_V]

Ok. Nineth attempt. Gems on grassland (no jungle!), Corn, 3 internal lake tiles, hills, forests, grassland. All in the middle of a large continent, 8 cities or so, that looks rather like a paradise with all kinds of resources, including one Gold in the South, plenty of food, and no AI neighbors. Lots of jungles, but that's ok.

Build: Worker -> Warrior -> Work boat (exploration) -> Oracle

Research: Mining -> Pottery -> Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Code of Laws

Finished both CoL and the Oracle in 1120 BC. Confucianism and CS, of course.

I almost forgot about the barbs, and this could cost me the game. In the middle of CoL-Oracle, a barb Archer took my second Warrior fortified in a forested hill near the capital. I quickly moved the capital's defender to a forest next to the barb, and switched to produce another Warrior (4 turns, no BW and no way to rush). Luckily, the wounded barb died attacking my last Warrior.

BW -> Alphabet -> Literature -> Iron Working -> Monotheism -> Metal Casting -> Machinery -> Construction

Machinery finished in 380 AD. Meanwhile I rushed Settlers and workers. By 395 AD I have 6 cities (good ones), my neighbor Washington from a small island of 2 cities nearby helped with one of them. He settled too close to my capital with the Oracle, Kong Miao and everything.

I have Copper, Iron, and Horses. Ready to produce Samurais, just need a while to mature a little my cities, they are so young.

I lost GL to Cyrrus by 2 or 3 turns, but that's ok. On such a continent I don't need any more wonders. BTW, American island is not that bad, their capital has 3 seafood, 2 sugar, and an Iron mine. Protected by something like 3 Archers and an Axe. This certainly could be my dream GP farm.

 

[Andrei_V]

Tenth attempt. Silver and Sheep on plains. One clear plains, the rest is forest on plains/grassland, and a hill/plains. River.

I am on a small island somewhere in Antarctic. There are two more Silver mines to the South, in the middle of arctic desert. There is a spot for a city, which will have both Silver mines and a Fish, but nothing else but some sea tiles.

On the North there is another spot with Cow and a seafood.

Definitely not the best place, despite the Silver mine, since I need both Animal Husbandry and the BW for chopping.

All right, I can work the Silver mine first, then research AH, then let the city grow and build a cottage on plains.

Build: Worker -> Work boat (exploration) -> Warrior -> Granary -> Work boat -> Oracle

Research: Pottery -> Mining -> Hunting -> Animal Husbandry -> Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Code of Laws.

As of 760 BC the AI beats me to the Oracle. I am 3 turns short of Code of Laws, although the Oracle could have been built 3 turns ago (I switched to Settler as usual).

Lesson: AH seems to never be worth researching before Slingshot. I could have built a cottage on the Sheep tile, and work it and the Silver. Or I could have built the second city near another Silver.