Cultural Victory should definitely be refined; let's discuss some suggestions

So I think that puts me squarely on the "Please don't bring back tourism" bandwagon. It was the worst idea in V and VI, once you have the generation, the game just becomes a Next Turn simulator. It's so refreshing that the legacy paths aren't, for the most part, inventing new currencies. Totally agree with limiting Explorer access, with spreading artifact generation more, and other ideas here. But in 99% of games, you're not closely fighting over victory at the end of the Modern era. Having a tourism counter AFTER the World Fair is like bringing back light years of travel to the science victory. In one in a hundred games, it let's you swipe a victory and in the other ninety nine, it's just an extra fifteen turns where nothing interesting happens.

I strongly agree with this, and disliked Civ 6’s Culture Victory, which was interesting largely in spite of its frustrating and dubious implementation.

I am not in favour of adding new currencies, especially currencies which do nothing but further a victory. Civ 7’s legacy paths are unpolished but are I think a step in the right direction in terms of collecting material things in game (resources, great works, treasure ships) that are associated with existing yields and gameplay loops. Artifacts fit a little awkwardly in this, and need to be tied more closely with other culture mechanics.
 
It feels like they had half a system in place, honestly, with the explorers running research in the universities and museums.

The key issue is that the artifacts are a limited, global resource, and that the process of discovering them is not linked to culture. The way I'd change it is - you need a museum to run the research. Once the museum is in place, you unlock a project to look for artifacts. The project costs culture, instead of production, and the cost scales, same as with settlers. If a city is using its culture that way, it's not contributing it to your totals used for civics. Once the research is done, it spawns one artifact somewhere on the map, that's only visible to you (don't mind if it's permanently, or for x turns). You still benefit from having explorers spread over the map - you grab them quicker - but the artifacts themselves are effectively infinite. You can then tune the culture costs so that discovering 15 is about as time-consuming as researching the full tech tree.

ETA: an alternative would be making it so a museum only finds an artifact on its own continent, and costs are separate per continent. That way, exploration age colonies are rewarded, and conquering colonies with museums is viable counterplay to slow things down.
This seems a good basic modification

Museum only research

Research costs culture

Continent limited

Multiple rounds of research possible

Cost per Artifact revealed in a round increases as you (or anyone else) look for more in the same continent (say initially 3 artifacts for X cost, then 2 for X cost, then 1 for X cost, then 1 for 2X cost, then 1 for 3X cost, etc)

But cost is significantly reduced to reveal artifacts another civ has already revealed

Can research in another civ’s Museums…uses your capital’s culture…cost adjusted based on relationship.

Hegemony / other advanced civics open up new categories of artifacts (essentially a “second continent” in the same location)


Flavorwise:….Many of the Artifacts should be named after Codices or Relics that were last housed near the location in previous ages
 
I strongly agree with this, and disliked Civ 6’s Culture Victory, which was interesting largely in spite of its frustrating and dubious implementation.

I am not in favour of adding new currencies, especially currencies which do nothing but further a victory. Civ 7’s legacy paths are unpolished but are I think a step in the right direction in terms of collecting material things in game (resources, great works, treasure ships) that are associated with existing yields and gameplay loops. Artifacts fit a little awkwardly in this, and need to be tied more closely with other culture mechanics.
tourism was dumb because culture already is a currency — why do we need to add another just for the victory condition?

so the obvious way to model a CV is right there: you build up culture.
 
tourism was dumb because culture already is a currency — why do we need to add another just for the victory condition?

so the obvious way to model a CV is right there: you build up culture.
However just filling a bucket with a yield is not good.
Even Science Victory you have to fill a particular series of buckets, and then a side bucket….and all have other benefits

I think that is the problem with CV (especially as compared to the Antiquity and Exploration)

Building Wonders isn’t done with culture…it gives you some benefits

Spreading your Religion isn’t done with culture, but it gets you some benefits (in addition to the Relics that keep track of your spread)

Digging up Artifacts gives no benefits besides they are a GW..and Victory

Perhaps if Artifacts gave a bonus to influence spent on the continent they came from. (+25% to Influence spent toward actions with any civ/IP with it’s capital on the continent this artifact came from)
 
However just filling a bucket with a yield is not good.
Even Science Victory you have to fill a particular series of buckets, and then a side bucket….and all have other benefits

I think that is the problem with CV (especially as compared to the Antiquity and Exploration)

Building Wonders isn’t done with culture…it gives you some benefits

Spreading your Religion isn’t done with culture, but it gets you some benefits (in addition to the Relics that keep track of your spread)

Digging up Artifacts gives no benefits besides they are a GW..and Victory

Perhaps if Artifacts gave a bonus to influence spent on the continent they came from. (+25% to Influence spent toward actions with any civ/IP with it’s capital on the continent this artifact came from)

I'm not sure the British stealing artifacts from all over Africa is helping them spread influence to those continents :p

But yeah, I think that's the disconnect right now with the culture victory. While science victory has always needed a production component in every civ game previously, you can in theory win the culture victory in civ 7 which your culture per turn is basically nothing. Even if the unlock pieces are late in the tree, at the very least it means you need to have a fairly dominant culture to get there first.
 
However just filling a bucket with a yield is not good.
Even Science Victory you have to fill a particular series of buckets, and then a side bucket….and all have other benefits

I think that is the problem with CV (especially as compared to the Antiquity and Exploration)

Building Wonders isn’t done with culture…it gives you some benefits

Spreading your Religion isn’t done with culture, but it gets you some benefits (in addition to the Relics that keep track of your spread)

Digging up Artifacts gives no benefits besides they are a GW..and Victory

Perhaps if Artifacts gave a bonus to influence spent on the continent they came from. (+25% to Influence spent toward actions with any civ/IP with it’s capital on the continent this artifact came from)

Also the way Civ 7 is designed it is very easy (and fun) to build incredible yields. It is a good thing that none of the victories are just “accumulate X yield”, as this would basically make victory a shallow optimisation problem.

The main issue with Culture Victory as currently implemented in Civ 7 (beyond pacing), is that it has nothing to done it h culture at all.
 
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For the most part I thought it was too fast, and that the AI stacks their explorers too much and could easily be better at catching artifacts. But I think it's not very hard to improve on these 2, make AIs spread their explorers a bit in anticipation, and just modifying how long it takes for explorers to dig and research would also work. Probably possible to improve it in other ways but don't mind a bit of RNG there at the moment. I thought it's ok that hegemony reveals for all players, as it makes the victory condition not even easier than it is. Although if hegemony didn't reveal everything for all, an AI researching it first would also be more threatening with that victory condition if you are not going for it. Don't know if that's needed atm.
 
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The listed changes in the patch give me some hope, though they remain vague. Changes to how AI handles explorers sounds like an obvious fix.

I’m relieved they are revising missionaries, too!
 
The listed changes in the patch give me some hope, though they remain vague. Changes to how AI handles explorers sounds like an obvious fix.

I’m relieved they are revising missionaries, too!
We'll see, in the meantime I'm really happy they addressed the problem!
 
After seeing the "fixes" to the cultural victory in the patch of tomorrow, I'm actually a bit disappointed. I don't think making Explorers more expensive will change the fact that this victory can be completly rushed (we'll see what they mean with "less artifacts from natural history...), and all the other problems stay the same basically.

In particular, giving artifacts with the "future civics" is completetly no sense; the problem with this victory type is that it's incredible easy to rush, if you go "cultural" you'll definitely win way before than reaching the final civics; if this was an idea to make the cultural victory a bit more connected with culture itself, giving an artifact just at the end of the civic tree won't change anything.

We'll see (I really hope to be wrong) but I'm way less optimistic now, I'm still pretty sure that having a fixed amount of explorers (one at the beginning, more with every civic) would still be the ideal solution.
 
After seeing the "fixes" to the cultural victory in the patch of tomorrow, I'm actually a bit disappointed. I don't think making Explorers more expensive will change the fact that this victory can be completly rushed (we'll see what they mean with "less artifacts from natural history...), and all the other problems stay the same basically.

In particular, giving artifacts with the "future civics" is completetly no sense; the problem with this victory type is that it's incredible easy to rush, if you go "cultural" you'll definitely win way before than reaching the final civics; if this was an idea to make the cultural victory a bit more connected with culture itself, giving an artifact just at the end of the civic tree won't change anything.

We'll see (I really hope to be wrong) but I'm way less optimistic now, I'm still pretty sure that having a fixed amount of explorers (one at the beginning, more with every civic) would still be the ideal solution.
Similarly disappointed here. Also, the addition of Britain means we now have a civilization designed for a culture victory rush. If you're playing as GB, it will be hard as a a player to resist this strategy.

Coincidentally, GB is also very strong with production and gold; both of which are essential for an explorer rush.
 
After seeing the "fixes" to the cultural victory in the patch of tomorrow, I'm actually a bit disappointed. I don't think making Explorers more expensive will change the fact that this victory can be completly rushed (we'll see what they mean with "less artifacts from natural history...), and all the other problems stay the same basically.

In particular, giving artifacts with the "future civics" is completetly no sense; the problem with this victory type is that it's incredible easy to rush, if you go "cultural" you'll definitely win way before than reaching the final civics; if this was an idea to make the cultural victory a bit more connected with culture itself, giving an artifact just at the end of the civic tree won't change anything.

We'll see (I really hope to be wrong) but I'm way less optimistic now, I'm still pretty sure that having a fixed amount of explorers (one at the beginning, more with every civic) would still be the ideal solution.
I think the biggest part of the fix is having less artifacts in regular way, but allowing digging natural wonders for artifacts. Depwnding on how this natural wonder digging is done, it could provide much better pacing and less racing.

But sure, better connection with culture would be nice.
 
I think the biggest part of the fix is having less artifacts in regular way, but allowing digging natural wonders for artifacts. Depwnding on how this natural wonder digging is done, it could provide much better pacing and less racing.

But sure, better connection with culture would be nice.
I really have no idea how the "natural wonder" stuff provide better pacing and less racing.

If every natural wonder has just place for one artifact (given only to the first one searching it), nothing changed, it's just flavour basically for an additional artifact site.

If every natural wonder can give exactly one artifact to every player, still literally nothing changed, except the fact the now every player has some number of artifacts that he knows for sure nobody can steal him (definitely not sure this is a better change, expecially considering that making this victory path even less easy to stop/ rush is a step back, not a fix).

If every natural wonder can give an infinite amounts of artifacts to every single players, this is simply no sense and DEFINITELY a huge step back.

I don't see any single situation where this "natural wonders fix" could provide better pacing and less racing, even if I hope to be wrong, maybe I'm not understanding something about this new fix.
 
I strongly agree with this, and disliked Civ 6’s Culture Victory, which was interesting largely in spite of its frustrating and dubious implementation.
I loved it but it was hilarious how the game struggled to explain it or how long it was going to take ...
 
An idea for VII -- what if instead of introducing a new currency to buy explorers, you could instead "bank" culture. As in--put X number of culture to the side per turn in order to eventually save up enough for an explorer. This would at the very least make culture generation somewhat relevant for the victory path?
 
An idea for VII -- what if instead of introducing a new currency to buy explorers, you could instead "bank" culture. As in--put X number of culture to the side per turn in order to eventually save up enough for an explorer. This would at the very least make culture generation somewhat relevant for the victory path?
Buying explorer with a new "culture currency" is basically the same as unlocking explorer with some civics, but a bit more complicated. I would stick with something more automatic like "every X civics = more explorer" or, even better in my opinion, "when you unlock some specific civics you get +1 explorer and/ or you get some bonuses to your explorers"
 
Buying explorer with a new "culture currency" is basically the same as unlocking explorer with some civics, but a bit more complicated. I would stick with something more automatic like "every X civics = more explorer" or, even better in my opinion, "when you unlock some specific civics you get +1 explorer and/ or you get some bonuses to your explorers"
I like this idea!
 
I really have no idea how the "natural wonder" stuff provide better pacing and less racing.

If every natural wonder has just place for one artifact (given only to the first one searching it), nothing changed, it's just flavour basically for an additional artifact site.

If every natural wonder can give exactly one artifact to every player, still literally nothing changed, except the fact the now every player has some number of artifacts that he knows for sure nobody can steal him (definitely not sure this is a better change, expecially considering that making this victory path even less easy to stop/ rush is a step back, not a fix).

If every natural wonder can give an infinite amounts of artifacts to every single players, this is simply no sense and DEFINITELY a huge step back.

I don't see any single situation where this "natural wonders fix" could provide better pacing and less racing, even if I hope to be wrong, maybe I'm not understanding something about this new fix.
I was thinking about third option. And together with much more expensive explorers this should make pacing more even. You'll be unable to rush collecting artifacts as you did before patch (due to expensive explorers), while still be able to get enough artifacts even if you're late to the party (due to natural wonders).
 
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