[GS] Culture Victory in GS

[Lily_Lancer]

I just realized that the strategy of CV changes a lot, too.

Previously the strategy is very simple, hurry to flight and computers with some culture UI, place the +50% card, and wait.

However this seems not working now. In the current version of game there are only 2 +25% modifiers, one from tech tree and the other from civic tree.

With open border +25%, -40% for different tier 3 or 4 governments , +75% for trade routes if you play with trade route card, and 1600 for a tourist, you basically need 150 tourism per turn to catch up 100 culture per turn for AI.

However, AI may be faster than you imagine. In a current game Rome is running at 600 culture per turn at T120, severely delay my CV progress. From T100 to T130 I'm seeing my tourists from 7/70 to 17/110, to 75/170, to 110/210, to 170/230, to 230/260. Finally Rome is running at 828 culture per turn and advanced to future era when I win the victory at T130s.

On the other hand, Rock bands without the card to freely choose promotion can produce ~3 tourists each, while Rock bands with that card can produce as much as 15~20 expected tourists each. If you manage to purchase 10~20 rock bands you are almost ensured victory with these bands only. Even if some of the AIs develop very quickly and banned rock bands you can still play on other AIs' territories.

So if you want CV you actually shall build less Theatre Squares but lots of Holy Sites? Seems so.

 

[_hero_]

So if you want CV you actually shall build less Theatre Squares but lots of Holy Sites? Seems so.

Yes and no. Theatre Square spamming is necessary to get to rock bands and the aforementioned policy card as fast as possible. Conversely, Campuses lose value when going for a CV. I think going for a HS+TS in every city would be the optimum path. Perhaps taking Wats and skipping Campuses in many cities is viable.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Yes and no. Theatre Square spamming is necessary to get to rock bands and the aforementioned policy card as fast as possible. Conversely, Campuses lose value when going for a CV. I think going for a HS+TS in every city would be the optimum path. Perhaps taking Wats and skipping Campuses in many cities is viable.

Choral Music shall be enough if you only wish to beeline Cold War. If you also wish the future policy that allows you to choose promotions, yes.

 

[FlyinPhil]

Reviving a dead thread and providing a game report. I see a lot of "theory" on culture games but haven't figured out a good search query that shows me actual game experiences dealing with culture victories (especially on Emperor and higher), so I thought I'd type this up for anyone else looking for a resource.

Background: played as Pericles/Greece on Emperor/Large/5 AI Civs/Marathon/Small Continents (this is my baseline game setting). In the just over three years since Civ 6 came out, I've only played on Prince, since the starting conditions between the AI and human players are the same. However, lately I've been trying various victory conditions at higher levels in order to up my game. The difference between King and Prince is slight, but the difference between Emperor and King is massive, mostly because the AI gets that second settler at the beginning.

I had previously achieved a science vic with those baseline settings on Emperor, and the main part of that game's strategy that translated to my culture vic attempt was the rapid early expansion, mostly achieved by getting Magnus, the +50% settler production card, and Ancestral Hall in the capital. I pretty much had the capital producing settlers nearly to the end of the game, with short breaks to build housing and Apadana (for the Great Work slots). This was necessary to avoid the AI civs running away with all the territory and resources.

In the past, my Prince-level strategy for culture was to play as France and rush wonders, without a focus on great works. In my multiple attempts on Emperor, this was clearly not going to work, as wonders suck up too much valuable production time, even with +100% wonder tourism as France. It's also just a part of my personal play style to build wonders; I really had to fight the urge and let them go this time. To be clear, as my culture started running away from the AI, I did build many of the cultural wonders (i.e. Hermitage, Bolshoi, etc.), but at the start, I only built Oracle and Apadana.

I also typically make my capital the center of my strategy (Campus for SV, Holy Site for RV, etc.), but this time it was just a settler factory. I ended up settling 21 of my own cities (and capturing another 4 through loyalty).

Science: I had one campus initially, then built one more to keep up with the AI. I had half the science the leading science civ had, but nearly kept up through good use of eurekas.

Defense: on Emperor, you absolutely have to have defensive resources ready early, including walls and archers. There was an early AI military rush every time I played. I performed no offensive military actions other than to capture nearby barbarian camps. I built one Encampment in a strategic spot to defend against my only land neighbor (the Mapuche).

Religion: I ALWAYS start a religion, even if it's defensive to keep AI from winning a RV. I didn't do it this time, and only built some late holy sites to get faith points for rock bands. Definitely didn't need it as the AI civs all fought each other on religion.

Money: I built one city with a Harbor and Commercial District in order to finance some stuff, as well as get era points to get a golden age. Speaking of...

Golden Ages: I typically chase Golden Ages, but on Emperor, diverting resources to go from standard age to golden is detrimental. As long as your cities aren't in danger of losing too much loyalty during a dark age, don't chase those era points. I did get a couple Golden ages towards the end which got me English and Mapuche cities that had been settled on my border.

Rock bands: I built 3 in the whole game, one of which lasted about a dozen performances and got a couple 6-star reviews. It accelerated my victory by probably 50 turns or so.

So what was my key to beating AI for culture on Emperor? It's all about the works! I chose Greece because a low-cost Theater Square (Acropolis) was key to rushing Great Writers, Artists, and Musicians. The low-cost unique district is key because new cities with low production can still build it in a reasonable amount of time. I think the AI got maybe 3 writers and 2 artists in the whole game, and I got the rest. My final tourism was 800+, and final culture was 700+. My main competition were the Incans and English, both of whom built numerous wonders and racked up the domestic tourists. The policy cards that boost music tourism and art tourism were key, as well as a lucky circumstance that the one scientist I got was Mary Leakey (artifacts get 300% tourism). Trade routes and open borders to every civ were also big. I ended up winning on turn 834 (on Marathon speed) at nearly the end of the Atomic era.

That's all I got for now, and I can post the map and a couple photos of my cities later. I'll be back if anyone wants to discuss more details on the strategy.

 

[Victoria]

I'll be back if anyone wants to discuss more details on the strategy.

Great works is a standard or ‘salted fish’ strategy. It is a bit nerfed and does need the help of bands. You often need to push many tourism options on immortal/deity but emperor is not to bad.
Reliquaries is the fastest.
A science CV is also an option where you spam resorts
A parks strategy can work better now they are buffed but not alone
Even the improvement path needs a bump now.
Deity CV can be a serious challenge now

weird, I had not seen this thread.... no idea why lily would give himself -40% by changing government. Also you build theaters to stop others getting culture.

 

[FlyinPhil]

Victoria,
An important caveat to my strategy is that I play peaceful almost to a fault, but I did reference a lot of your notes on cultural strategy, and I think a more aggressive play style goes along with everything you said. I'm also not a chopper, which I know slows down my victories a bit, but it's sort of an aesthetic thing with me.

 

[enKage]

I am not an expert CV, but the only case I go for CV is LaVenta in game. It gives massive tourism from heads and contributes enough faith to gain tourism via parks/rockbands. Otherwise it takes too much time

 

[Tech Osen]

Did a CV the other day without rock bands with Eleanor's France. So mainly great works but also half a dozen parks with the Eiffel Tower and lots of ski resorts. Was a tad low on faith generation and opted to use it buy great persons and parks instead of bands. Wasn't the fastest win but not too slow either. Rome was the biggest rival.
Was amused I got exactly 9000 points for the World's Fair which was almost triple what the number two got. I had Divine Spark and The Oracle in a city with Pingala.

 

[FlyinPhil]

I had Divine Spark and The Oracle in a city with Pingala.

I had this in my first city with an Acropolis on the game I referenced above, and for a time, I couldn't build amphitheaters quickly enough to hold all the works from the Great Writers I was getting every few turns. It's almost OP.

 

[Tech Osen]

I had this in my first city with an Acropolis on the game I referenced above, and for a time, I couldn't build amphitheaters quickly enough to hold all the works from the Great Writers I was getting every few turns. It's almost OP.

I was very happy that most neighboring cities already had (empty) theatre squares ready to go.

 

[Victoria]

Timing is a significant advantage

 

[FlyinPhil]

Reliquaries is the fastest.

Victoria, I always want to do this on a culture game, but I don't know good methods for racking up relics. Is it simply a matter of waiting for Mont St. Michel and then purposefully letting apostles die in religious combat?

 

[Victoria]

Victoria, I always want to do this on a culture game, but I don't know good methods for racking up relics. Is it simply a matter of waiting for Mont St. Michel and then purposefully letting apostles die in religious combat?

There is a variety
Kandy gets them early but you have to be both lucky to get it early and careful you do not find wonders before you have space. Then it’s just about meeting people and getting trade routes/open borders to them as with any CV.
Kongo has 5 relic slots from the start but no ability to create temples so more than 5 relics needs wonders/GP
Khmer can get relics with missionaries and get plenty of slots but the trouble is missionaries are from god amd still need to be shocked by an apostle to be elevated.
Quite a few GOTM games have relics... the higher the difficulty the faster the victory because you are relying on the AI.

 

[hr_oskar]

I only started playing Civ 6 recently but I'm a long time veteran of the series and have caught up fairly fast.

My most recent game and first complete playthrough was a deity culture victory on turn 220 with the Maori (standard speed, small map, 10 civs, 14 city states). I have lots of observations from that game and things I could potentially improve, as I was going in a bit blindly during the end game and for a while even misunderstood how CV works:

1. In my game, the top AI culture civ (Egypt) was on 230 domestic tourists at the end while the rest were all below 200. I've observed in this one and other playthroughs that some AI civs (notably Egypt, Greece, Persia, probably some others) may have a very high culture per turn relative to science per turn, even close to a 3:1 ratio mid game. My main regret was that I didn't try to hurt Egypt at all, even though she was technologically backwards and militarily weak (but on a different continent). From now on I will try to spot those "culture softies" early and aggressively go after them to try to choke off their excessive culture build up -- if not with outright conquest then get other civs to fight them, pillage their lands in short wars, use spies to mess with them, etc. Basically, you can focus exclusively on filling the tourist bucket or you could "cheat" by making the bucket smaller. Finding the optimal level of aggression to help a CV is very interesting to me. What works best will depend on the map and the playing field.
   
2. It's much easier to buy great works straight from the AI than making your own, except for artifacts. Doing so also reduces their culture per turn, as per #1.
   
3. Archaelogical museums are much better than art museums (easier theming, higher yields), but I'll still want a few art museums to fill with the art I'm buying from the AI.
4. Past Printing (lower half) and the Flight -> Radio -> Computers line (upper half), tech has very little value, while you'll want to keep up civic development all the way to Social Media and Environmentalism. So, after those milestones, swap out all science policy cards, stop building campuses and don't build research labs.
   
5. It follows from #1 and #4 that you'll only have brief periods of military advantage versus the culture civs, so account for that in any war plans. Don't divert research to the lower half military techs before Computers, that won't be worth it.
6. You "fill the bucket" with tourists from everyone, including the weak civs. They each get affected by your full tourism per turn, so eliminating civs will reduce the amount of tourists you get
   
7. Rock bands are amazing but their value relative to everything else will depend on the number of remaining civs, as they only add tourism score on one civ. Against 6 AI civs, a national park producing 28 tourism per turn will only take 9 turns to match a rock band producing 1500 tourism total on one civ. More civs favors passive generation over rock bands. So generally, the rock bands are mainly a way to shave the last 5-10 turns off your win.
8. More land conquered and settled means more resorts, more national parks, more faith from cheap holy sites and more museums to store the art you've bought from the AI's. It's very much a wide game. Particularly true if city states with relevant UI's (notably La Venta) are in the game.
   
9. Cristo Redentor is the best wonder as both relics and resorts are good. The Eiffel Tower is nice but on the wrong tech path. The other cultural wonders are nice and all but not a priority. St Basil's Cathedral is an interesting option that should perhaps be considered.
   
10. No need to found a religion but holy sites are a great investment in the mid game to rack up faith generation and get slots for all those relics you're going to buy from whatever religious nut AI built the Mont St Michel.

I probably made a whole lot of obvious points in this list to the experienced players, sorry for that. Overall I'm finding CV to be the most interesting and diverse victory type -- a lot of different viable approaches that will vary by the map type, AI civs and of course the civ/leader you're playing.

 

[Victoria]

making the bucket smaller

I am not sure you really are. A CV bucket, like an RV one, grows with every turn. Removing your potentially highest competition makes the bucket smaller but stops it growing so much.

Overall I'm finding CV to be the most interesting and diverse victory type

I used to think that. To me now it all just feels like window dressing and you can do it with your eyes closed. The mechanics are not too hard. I find an SV is for more involved and enjoyable now.

I probably made a whole lot of obvious points in this list to the experienced players

It is a fine list and deserves no criticism.
Missing advice but still great.

 

[hr_oskar]

One point I forgot on my list is that a tier 2 government might turn out to be optimal in most games -- different T3/4 gov's incur -40% penalties to each other and -20% to all lower tier gov's, while T2 gov's are at no penalty to each other and -20% to upper tier ones. In my recent deity game the majority of AI civs were still using T2 and even T1 governments on turn 220 (!), so I was wrong to ever adopt the advanced governments.

The optimal way might be to go democracy when it's available, build the National Museum asap and then switch to theocracy for cheaper faith purchases and less penalties. That way I'd get a useful building and the legacy card.

I am not sure you really are. A CV bucket, like an RV one, grows with every turn. Removing your potentially highest competition makes the bucket smaller but stops it growing so much.

Do you mean it grows by some mechanics I'm not aware of? As in, era progression, turns elapsed or something else? As far as I know the "bucket" is just the accumulated culture of the top culture civ. So if there's one civ that is on course to have a mucher higher total than the rest, I could look for ways to reduce its culture per turn to bring it more in line with the rest. Of course I can't stop the world as a whole to gain culture over time, but I also don't like to see a single runaway delay my win by ~20 turns. The trick is how to stop it with minimal investment, so that my acts of aggression don't end up delaying the win even more.

I used to think that. To me now it all just feels like window dressing and you can do it with your eyes closed. The mechanics are not too hard. I find an SV is for more involved and enjoyable now.

Is that because you have mastered the CV to a greater degree than SV or because you think there's a real difference between the two? I'm seeing plenty of subtlety in the CV mechanics, considering my list and the fact that you even say its missing advice.

It is a fine list and deserves no criticism.
Missing advice but still great.

Anything you care to share in brief? I just ask because there's a big lack of Civ6 guides and strategy discussion compared to Civ5, so I haven't really found anything helpful for CV strategies.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Don't spam wonders in a CV just for the sake of a tourism. If it has slots, yes. If it has great bonuses, yes. But every wonder you build is one less spot for a Rock Band.

 

[Mahi]

I just realized that the strategy of CV changes a lot, too.

Previously the strategy is very simple, hurry to flight and computers with some culture UI, place the +50% card, and wait.

However this seems not working now. In the current version of game there are only 2 +25% modifiers, one from tech tree and the other from civic tree.

With open border +25%, -40% for different tier 3 or 4 governments , +75% for trade routes if you play with trade route card, and 1600 for a tourist, you basically need 150 tourism per turn to catch up 100 culture per turn for AI.

However, AI may be faster than you imagine. In a current game Rome is running at 600 culture per turn at T120, severely delay my CV progress. From T100 to T130 I'm seeing my tourists from 7/70 to 17/110, to 75/170, to 110/210, to 170/230, to 230/260. Finally Rome is running at 828 culture per turn and advanced to future era when I win the victory at T130s.

On the other hand, Rock bands without the card to freely choose promotion can produce ~3 tourists each, while Rock bands with that card can produce as much as 15~20 expected tourists each. If you manage to purchase 10~20 rock bands you are almost ensured victory with these bands only. Even if some of the AIs develop very quickly and banned rock bands you can still play on other AIs' territories.


So if you want CV you actually shall build less Theatre Squares but lots of Holy Sites? Seems so.

If Rome is running 600 culture per turn at turn 150 you need to either saddle up for another victory or you need to go to war with him and capture his culture cities.. Or make the whole world DOW on him and hope for the best.

 

[Victoria]

Or make the whole world DOW on him and hope for the best.

...or have 1800 tourism. About triple their culture ensures you keep moving to your target at a fair pace if you are doing things right.
It is a simple rough figure and may need to be more if some civs have gone.

 

[alancsilver]

salted fish

I don't remember what this is. Can you remind me?