CypRyan's Wide & Tall

CypRyan's Wide & Tall 40

CypRyan

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CypRyan submitted a new resource:

CypRyan's Wide & Tall - Since Wide vs Tall is no real thing in Civ VI, this mod tries to add some tweaks and buildings to ma

Since Wide vs Tall is no real thing in Civ VI, this mod tries to add some tweaks and buildings to make Tall play viable and balance it out with Wide play.

Disclaimer

This mod is yet to be carefully tested and balanced. Some modified properties are likely to be too weak or strong.
There are no 3D models or custom icons, yet.
Any constructive feedback or disscussion...

Read more about this resource...
 

Discussion: Boosted City Growth

Starting in Classical era your cities get boosted growth when having a low total city count. This boost scales up while progressing through eras and maxes out in Industrial era.
Since Civ VI mechanics make it hard to grow big cities (at least much harder than having many medium sized cities) the additional boost should help to grow few big cities.
The fact that big cities will have more districts and therefore more food yields for internal trade plus some of the Dedication Buildings will further help to grow cities.
However, it is supposed to still be a challenge to provide enough Amenities, Food and Housing. There is no intention in making Tall play too easy.

Discussion: Yield Penalty

Yield penalty for Science, Faith and Culture starts at 6 cities and gradually increases per city, capping at 25 cities. There are 4 types to choose from: Minimal, Low, Medium and High.The yield penalty will likely slow down the total game pace a bit. Yet, this is the most critical change of this mod and the hardest to balance.

Science and Faith

These yields play a major role for science and religion victory and should therefore be balanced out.

Why Penalty for Culture and not for Tourism?

Culture does not directly correspond to Tourism, but adding a raw penalty was too hard. More cities have more slots for great works and to counter that the Dedication Buildings do contain Slots for Great Works. While you might have more space for National Parks and Tourism improvements when going wide it may be easier to snipe some wonders when playing tall.

Why no Gold Penalty?

There are several argument for and against this. Having a great empire should result in more total available Gold, since you will likely need more units and buildings to maintain. With Dedication Buildings a tall player will have even more buildings to maintain per city. However it is supposed to be a challenge and he will likely get away with building less units to defend the empires smaller territory.

What about Production?

There is no penalty for Production. A tall empire will have less total Production than a wide empire. However, the Production per city will likely be higher, especially when building the Dedication Buildings in the Industrial Zone. This is a trade off to consider when deciding between wide and tall play.

Discussion: Dedication Buildings, Governors, Power, Trade Routes, GPP

Tall cities will soon be able to build all kinds of districts. One idea was to boost the yields when having few cities only. This seems unfair, since the total culture output of a science oriented tall empire would be almost the same as the culture output of a culture oriented tall empire.

Dedication Buildings

In order to force tall empires to make decisions and dedicate to one or few purposes the Dedication Buildings were introduced.Similar to choosing a dedication to a certain yield or victory when constructing your first District you dedicate your city when choosing your first Dedication Buildings.

Governors

A great metropolis needs to be managed well in order to function. Therefore Dedication Buildings are much more powerful when the city is currently under the supervision of a Governor.This limits the number of cities that can unleash the full potential of Dedication Buildings while not denying them completely to a great amount of cities.When you still want the Governor specific benefits of Dedication Buildings you will have to sacrifice some additional Governors for the sake of upgrading a few.

Power

Dedication Buildings are very power hungry. You will find that tall cities will require mush more power, just like irl. This is another challenge to come by when playing tall and it will further require good planning.

Trade Routes

More cities means more Trade Routes, actually one Trade Route per additional city. Since these play an important role there is a huge disadvantage when having few cities only. Therefore the Tier 5 Buildings for Commercial Hub and Harbor grant +1 Trade Routes.

Great People Points

Since the amount of buildings in a district are limited in the vanilla game the number of cities is proportional to one kind of district and therefore also proportional to the Great People Points you can earn of a specific type. To counter that, the Dedication Buildings grant additional GPPs (and even more, when a Governor is established).

Discussion: Policy Cards, Era Dedication

Policy Cards

Some Policy Cards were modified to also scale with Dedication Buildings:
  • Frescoes
  • Symphonies
  • Military Research
  • Military Organization
  • Laissez Faire
  • Science Foundation
  • Third Alternative

Era Dedication

New City Life Dedication boost city growth on your Capital's continent and yields 2 Food for domestic trade when in Golden Age and grants +2 Era Score when you Capital grows in Normal Age.

Discussion: Abandon City Project

Once the Nationalism Civic has been unlocked you may abandon cities with the Abandon City Project. This does not work for your capital. Since it may be of disadvantage at some point to have too many cities this change felt necessary. One idea was to emit negative loyalty while this project runs, but I haven't picked this one up yet.
 
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Info

Date: 2022-01-07 (v10)
Leader: Jayavaraman VII
Game Speed: Fast (extended)
Map Size: Tiny
Difficulty: Prince
Major Civs: 8
City States: 10
Wide Penalty: Medium
Game Modes: Babarian Clans
Exp & DLCs: R&F, GS, New Frontier Pack
Relevant Mods: Extended Eras, Better Coastal Cities and Water Tiles, TCS Free Walls for City-States

Game Course

I wanted to try a scenario that is all set for tall play.

Pantheon

Choosing the pantheon was hard, since Fertility Rites sounds just so nice for ciy growth, but playing Jayavaraman VII I decided to go with River Goddess. I thought there was no use in overgrown cities with constant housing and amenity problems, so I took the neat 2 Amenities and 2 Housing.

Religion

Follower Belief: This decision was not easy. I am usually not a fan of Feed the World, but I though it just fits in so nice. However I feared an early struggle with Production and I wanted to add another incentive to keep the Scripture Policy Card to make full use of the unique leader bonus Monasteries of the King (food for Holy Site adjacencies).
Founder Belief: Since I planned to have highly populated cities a Founder Belief that scales with followers sounded nice. I took Cross-Cultural Dialogue to mitigate the delay of Campuses, since I needed Holy Sites, Commercials Hubs and Harbors first (all to boost Food). I took this over World Church, since I would already get a ton of Culture from Prasats and I didn't want my test game to end too fast.
Worship Belief: Stupa was the obvious choice for me, since I already had tons of sources for Food income. Otherwise I would have taken Gurdwaras.

Great People

For my setup and with a +7 Holy Site in my Capital I was heading for Hildegard of Bingen to complement that. Therefore I saved up some faith and built, against my actual plan, an early campus. I was going to head for Oracle anyway and without Work Ethic I wouldn't have made it to snipe it first.
Additional Trade Routes, Amenities and extra Housing were on my top priority list for GPs. The Great Scientists that buff Campuses and their buildings were not all that interesting than usual, since I didn't plan to go beyond 5 cities.

Wonders

Since I would have a great disadvantage in acquiring GPPs until my first Dedication Buildings kick in I was obviously heading for Oracle.
Hanging Gardens, a wonder I usually avoid, seemed to be, all of a sudden, very spicy. I headed for that in my second city and the AI didn't seem to care much for that wonder, this time.
I was about to start building Temple of Artemis when the AI was just so much faster. However, a well placed Colosseum would yield tons of great Amenities for my empire and I was able to reach 4 cities (which is not that easy when settling very sparse).
I was of two minds about the Casa de Contratación. The yield bonuses for foreign continents would never kick in for me, but the extra governor titles would help to unlock some of the Dedication Buildings Promotion dependent abilities, so I headed for it.
Colossus was nice for the extra Trade Route.
Now, about Ankor Wat. I was not planing to build this, although it seems to fit well for the tall play style. But space is a problem with few cities and the bonuses are not that great compared to the costs. However, I found a perfect spot in my 5th city, called Ankor Wat, so the discussion was over.

Cities and Growth

Growing the cities in the beginning was quite easy due to the Food from Holy Sites and domestic Trade. Magnus boost to Trade was all welcome and I found myself focusing Farms even more than ever before. I was heading for Liang with Aquaculture to add some nice extra source of food. I found it just too easy to grow my cities, but I guess this setup was beyond average. I am curious what others expecience.
Taking the City Life Golden Age Dedication I hit about 60% city growth bonus. +15% from Haning Gardens, +10% from City Life, +16% from having 5 Cities only and +20% from Amenities. Fertility Rites could have added another 10%, but I had to plan very well to keep all my cities Ecstatic in the mid game. I was just waiting for the time that I could replace some mines with Farms.
Housing was hard to come by and I tried to go for Neighborhoods asap. River Godess, Aquaculture and Farms helped quite well, but still it was not easy to provide enough housing.
Reaching about 42 population in Renaissance Era felt a bit to much.

Trade

The cost for domestic Trade Routes is high. I felt the missing money and that made it really feel like a decision to play tall. Since I was able to build many districts in my big cities the domestic yields were great and I was planing to buff them as soon as I was able to get Tier4/5 buildings for my Commercial Hubs and Harbors. The Food yield from domestic Trade was insane, and even the Production yield was ok. But the lack of Gold was not that easy to come by. Until building some Central Banks and Millenium Ports the low number of available Trade Routes was a real struggle.

Dedication Buildings

I was focusing on T4/5 buildings in Commercial Hubs and Harbors for the domestic yields, Food and extra Trade Routes. Just after that I headed for Campus buildings. However I felt the urge to pull out some Giant Industrial Centers, since Power started to become a problem.

Summary

Tall play was very satisfying. There were new challenges and the playstyle felt rewarding. However, it felt just too easy, but no more easy than a normal game vs. Prince AI. City population started to sky rocket once the most Food and growth modifiers were in place. This might be due to the perfect synergy with Jayavaraman VII, or needs a bit of nerf.
 
CypRyan updated CypRyan's Wide & Tall with a new update entry:

CypRyan's Wide & Tall v17

  • Rewrote complete mod.
  • Added support for Rise&Fall and Vanilla.
  • Added support for many popular mods.
  • Added governor replacement buildings for Vanilla game.
  • Switched concept from additional buildings to tall extensions.
  • Removed wide yield penalty in favor for tall yield bonus.
  • Improved visualization of available slots.
  • Added custom icons.
  • Added civilopedia entries.
  • Improved effects for tall extensions.
  • Included feedback and bug reports.
  • Abandond city...

Read the rest of this update entry...
 
This is brilliant!
Just the mod I was looking for, as I prefer playing tall over wide. I'm going to give it a try now.

A question/tip - can you scale up the production costs of settlers? To prevent the AI from spamming them and making more cities, even if it won't benefit from them.
 
This is brilliant!
Just the mod I was looking for, as I prefer playing tall over wide. I'm going to give it a try now.

A question/tip - can you scale up the production costs of settlers? To prevent the AI from spamming them and making more cities, even if it won't benefit from them.

Happy you like it!
The new version of this mod is designed in a way that there is no penalty for playing wide and it should feel just the same as without this mod. So it is completely viable (or even better) to go wide.
I tweaked some leaders (like Jayavaraman) to have less incentive to build more settlers once they reach a certain threshold and they tend to settle slightly more sparse to leave space for bigger cities to grow.
However, I have to admit that modding the AI is ugly without lua and I haven't had the chance to fully test the AI modifications.
Have you experienced an AI hurting itself late in the game, when it was already going the tall play route?

Thank you for your feedback!
 
CypRyan updated CypRyan's Wide & Tall with a new update entry:

v37 (2023-06-12)

v37
  • Bug-Fix: Golden Age Dedication City Life Era Score.
  • Bug-Fix: City center Tall Extensions Indicator Tooltip.
  • Bug-Fix: City Project Abandon City should not show up in players capital anymore.
  • Bug-Fix: Artifacts should now work correctly for Artifact Museum Tall Extension.
  • Configuration: Tall Yield bonus configurable for Human/AI.
  • Adjustment: Buff Culture Tall Extensions Tourism...

Read the rest of this update entry...
 
CypRyan updated CypRyan's Wide & Tall with a new update entry:

CypRyan's Wide & Tall v38

v38 (2023-09-12)
  • Bug-Fix: Fix crash when selecting Configuration for Tall Yield Bonus for AI or player only.
  • UI: Improve Era Dedication Selection popup to show more than 4 options.
  • UI: Improve Info Tooltip for TE info building in city center.
  • UI: Add well formatted Real Report Screens info about TEs and tall empires.
  • Configuration: Tall Bonus scaling.
  • Configuration: Puppet...

Read the rest of this update entry...
 
CypRyan updated CypRyan's Wide & Tall with a new update entry:

v40

  • Compatibility: Add full CQUI Production Panel compatibility.
  • Adjustment: Replace Tier 1 TE GPP/Pop effect with GPP from Specialists.
  • Adjustment: Diversify TE Effects in same district.
  • Adjustment: Modify Spy operations in TE districts.
  • Feature: Add TE Text Description Icon.
  • Feature: Preserve some TEs after capturing Cities.
  • Feature: Add Neighborhood TE...

Read the rest of this update entry...
 
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