Is Tall Tradition "Too Brittle" - an analysis

[azum4roll]

Having forts count as supply is interesting, but ultimately would you give up your economy (and happiness!) to fix your supply? (Counting unworkable forts is not balanced, so we assume only workable ones here)

With a normal empire shape (roughly circle/square, not too spread apart), the number of frontier tiles scales linearly with diameter while supply scales linearly with area, which is quadratic with diameter. With the current supply number mechanic, wide always has the advantage on supply per frontline tiles over tall. Supply per population is supposed to address this (tall should have more population), but it seems inadequate.

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Current supply numbers (assuming neutral difficulty and neutral civ):

Base supply from city: 1
Extra flat supply from buildings: +3
Extra flat supply from coastal buildings: +3

Base supply from population (only counting half of population if puppet): 25%
Extra supply percentage from buildings: +60%
Extra supply percentage from stable: +10%
Extra supply percentage from seaport: +20%

And we're not even counting wonders and policies.

It seems the supply from buildings far outweighs the base numbers, which benefits wide with its better infrastructure.

 

[Solic]

Maybe give the tree some great general point generation, which fits great person generation, gives indirectly more supply and allows them to turtle more by having more citadels.

Even more of an alternative and more work is to give it a special specialist slot that gives great general points, so you can actively choose to go for more defense or not.

 

[Stalker0]

we have had a LOT of discussion about tradition supply in the past, and its been generally agreed that a low supply is part of the intended weakness of tall. You can't get everything, and that is one of its weaknesses.

so I think "just add more supply" is a non-starter. The more interesting ideas are around "naval supply" specifically, or ways to let tall players actually have a navy that's useable.

 

[pineappledan]

The naval supply concept doesn't interest me, simply because its more complexity. I feel that VP has plenty of mechanical complexity as is.

 

[Stalker0]

One option would be to unlock great generals as a faith buy option for Tradition. Now thematically there are problems, not to mention overlap with authority. The main benefit is it would give tradition some "on tap supply scaling" if it really needed to start going more aggressive in industrial (or if it really needed to defense up looking at a hungry neighbor near its borders).

Or perhaps the simplest answer is.... a good Tall player just has to have laser focus on the signs of whether their strategy is working, and pivot immediately to like imperialism to start shifting focus. In this model, being able to "stay Tall" is a luxury that a particular instance of the game affords, and if you are fortunate enough to have those conditions, than enjoy the game. But if the game is "turning against you" than you must change gears and go with a more force projection strategy.

 

[N.Core]

I was quite disappointed that the settled puppets proposal didn't win.

Yeah, me too. I've tried it in my custom game and it helps Tradition a bit. Settle your 5-6 main cities while also settling 3-5 outer puppet cities.

 

[N.Core]

I'm not sure if this is a good idea, but we can make some buildings have population requirements so then only tall players can build them, thus making them stronger.

 

[alchx]

Maybe add the "increase unit limit' process to the capital, similar to Public Works. The price depends on the number of cities and population.

But I don’t understand why the High Tradition needs a large army? The tree's bonuses are aimed at playing defensively - increased combat power of cities, increased border growth rate.

If you actively fight, you can place Citadels around your empire, completely blocking the possibility of an attack. If you place Citadels after 2 tiles, then their aura will protect the entire border continuously. Up to 3 forts can be placed near each Citadel.

But you can add a combat bonus to units on the territory of the empire +5%. Only on the territory of the empire and small, so as not to compete with religious beliefs.

Plus by turn 200 you can have about 9-11 caravans. This is more than enough for an empire of 3-4 cities to give the cities a lot of food and hammers. And there will still be a few trade caravans left.

 

[alchx]

If you wish, you can completely isolate yourself from aggressive AI. Here Authory and several generals were bought, but the general idea of the Citadels is this. The AI is unable to overcome this defensive network. Places for possible installation of additional forts are marked. 1/2+ armies plus navy explore the beauty of other countries. All ground units are produced in the only city in which the building '+10% combat strength" is located - elite troops.

Spoiler :

 

[Stalker0]

If you wish, you can completely isolate yourself from aggressive AI. Here Authory and several generals were bought, but the general idea of the Citadels is this. The AI is unable to overcome this defensive network. Places for possible installation of additional forts are marked. 1/2+ armies plus navy explore the beauty of other countries. All ground units are produced in the only city in which the building '+10% combat strength" is located - elite troops.

Spoiler :

View attachment 673981

I think you missing the premise of the OP. Its not that tradition cannot defend itself per say. Its that tradition doesn't have enough force projection to win the game if the AI plays "correctly"

 

[Diomedes_]

I still think the biggest issue is how much earlier you can achieve a CV than a Diplo or Science victory. In my mind, science should be exclusively for tall players, domination for wide players, while CV and Diplo should be equally attainable for either. While we've done a lot to address tourism and the CV, I still think it needs to be more difficult to get and thus only be able to happen around the same time a Diplo or Science victory can happen.

 

[alchx]

I think you missing the premise of the OP. Its not that tradition cannot defend itself per say. Its that tradition doesn't have enough force projection to win the game if the AI plays "correctly"

A lot of food - many citizens - many specialists - many science - a lot of culture. To use all guilds and scientific slots is not problems.
There is a vote in Congress - the cost of well-known technologies. You can become an ally of the military and cultural CSs for science and culture.
With a small number of cities it is impossible to win Wonders that are built by the whole congress together. But no one forbids to seize the capital with this Wonder, if there is such a need.
In VP, it is impossible to stably bribe AI for conducting a proxy-war - at this moment it is difficult for high empires, but there are defensive pacts.

 

[John.B.C]

People here seem to get hang up on the world "Tall". IMO opinion it's also about Tradition as a policy tree even BEFORE one's cities become Tall... It suffers hugely from production issues and to my experience: often has happiness problems - long before it starts becoming tall! (on diety). I've tried many games now ... and after settling the third city without even having any population at all - the mere reality of plummeting below 50 starts to squeeze in on you. Add the fact that the Capital is in some way supposed to support the worthless satelite cities. It's 9 out of 10 times not up for this task while at the same time focusing on itself unless:

one doesn't get incredible land together with the perfect neighbours - which is just extremely rare!

A swamp/jungle sugar monopoly equals restart playing tradition.

Late game, the mere small size of land available might pose a problem (if also being squeezed by citadels ), if one lacks the resources for happiness and required for 'buildings/units', iron, horse coal, aluminum etc.

 

[Legen]

Its that tradition doesn't have enough force projection to win the game if the AI plays "correctly"

Imperialism is the most dedicated tree towards force projection, a Tradition player should be able to project force by choosing Imperialism later on. The issue is whether you can have enough supply to project force against a far away civ and still have enough troops to defend yourself if a neighbor gets hostile.

In my mind, science should be exclusively for tall players

That goes against Progress's science orientation. It is overall the best tree for civs that lean heavily towards science, like Babylon, Maya and Assyria. Korea is the exception to this rule.

 

[pineappledan]

War supply scales with population, right?

If Tradition is failing to raise enough war supply to defend itself, maybe the base population to supply scaler could be made higher, or Tradition's growth itself could be made higher?
Seems like Tradition already has the tools in place to handle supply issues indirectly; maybe some small tweaks are needed to facilitate it.

 

[Stalker0]

If Tradition is failing to raise enough war supply to defend itself

I don't think the issue is Tradition's defense per say, you can make an army big enough to defend. You just can't make an army big enough to really attack.

 

[pineappledan]

K, well point still stands.

 

[ma_kuh]

I'm coming around to the main problem being pop=>supply scaling. A little boost to that seems in order. Where it comes in is maybe a discussion of its own, but I like the idea of putting it on the palace. Draft Registration specifically also seems like it could maybe get some supply to be more in-theme, and also addressing a specific problem with Tall Freedom.

One other thought that occurs to me, we have more rockets now with the ENW integration. So I could see an angle where part of smart Tall play is having a healthy number of rockets that give you strong windows to push with your smaller army. Part of Tall's appeal is their science advantage, so being ahead of the curve with rockets seems on-point as well.

 

[Jozrael]

Tall gives up force projection, but just because they don't have the ability to militarily hamper someone on the other side of the world doesn't mean it's not viable. Committing to a race can let you shed inefficient trappings that make you faster, and if you don't reach finish line first, that doesn't mean you weren't viable - just brittle. You didn't have a backup plan.

I think your points about e.g. diplomatic victory are correct in that it's not viable - you don't have an answer to someone taking aim at you. The problem you pose 'can you stop me' has a definite 'yes'. With a race, the problem you pose 'can you stop me' is a 'maybe!' Those are different answers.

 

[pitofanavocado]

What kinds of decisions is this type of play encouraging as the game progresses? Early on, you're planning out a defensive ring of cities, so that's pretty interesting. Maybe you're deciding if all 3 guilds should go in 3 cities, or if you want to split them up a bit.

But once you set up your cities and guilds, you're just playing defense and trying to race, it doesn't really seem like engaging with the rest of the game. Unless I'm missing something? If that's the plan, I'm not sure I really care to make this kind of play is "strong", if this was a competitive strategy it sounds kind of degenerate.

Having reasons for second or third expansion waves seems good, it doesn't need to be ICS. I think the settled-puppets idea is worth (re)considering to let Tall Tradition play more islands/garrison cities that don't slow down its primary race, i.e. tourism and/or science.

it’s nice to play this way sometimes, after playing authority/progress where each turn takes 15 minutes to manage all your cities and units.

One option would be to unlock great generals as a faith buy option for Tradition. Now thematically there are problems, not to mention overlap with authority. The main benefit is it would give tradition some "on tap supply scaling" if it really needed to start going more aggressive in industrial (or if it really needed to defense up looking at a hungry neighbor near its borders).

Or perhaps the simplest answer is.... a good Tall player just has to have laser focus on the signs of whether their strategy is working, and pivot immediately to like imperialism to start shifting focus. In this model, being able to "stay Tall" is a luxury that a particular instance of the game affords, and if you are fortunate enough to have those conditions, than enjoy the game. But if the game is "turning against you" than you must change gears and go with a more force projection strategy.

You could include Great General Points from Barbarians in the Justice policy.

-It fits with the theme of the Policy, makes the choice between Sovereignty and Justice a little more interesting, and gives Tradition a chance to keep up with Great Generals.

-It’s unlikely an Authority player would use two policies to try to abuse it.