Cyrus + Horses + Stone = gg?

[futurehermit]

I've been playing random civ lately on monarch/continents/normal/improved ai mod settings. I win most of my games, though none have felt easy so far. That all changed in a game I played yesterday.

I got Cyrus (Charismatic/Imperialistic) and had horses and stone in my 2nd city (with a bonus--marble in my capital).

I was planning an immortal rush if I had horses (duh), but I wasn't planning to use a SE. That all changed with stone. I built the pyramids, got 3 total cities, hooked up the horses and was ready to immortal rush tokugawa who had started settling nearby. Meanwhile I started going farm-crazy and running specialists with representation.

Now let me tell you representation + charismatic early on is major it's just sick really. Plus my tech was off the charts as per usual with the SE. PLUS I had a nasty army of immortals. On top of THAT I pop out more GGs than per usual (imperialistic) which I settled in one city for +2xp AND +3 beakers! (Later in the game I was producing units that had 4 promotions out of the gates!!!)

So, prior to 1AD I was able to: wipe toku down to just his capital keeping the closer cities, razing the farther ones (his capital was furthest), and suing for peace for a couple techs; build the GL (marble rocks); and start on Mehmed, who I eventually took down to just his capital following the same procedure as Toku. (I also used my first GE on the parthenon)

Now after all of this warring, you would think I would be a bit backwards on tech? Au contraire, I had a nice tech LEAD and I ended up getting liberalism btwn 800 and 900 AD.

The state of the world was now like this: I am on a huge continent, I wiped out Toku and Mehmed leaving me in the north with a very large empire. In the south (which I thought of as a different continent since it was only connected to the north by a single tile!!!) we have nappy and korea. A couple hundred years later I found that it was genghis and gandhi living in a strained peace overseas.

I declared the game a victory around 1500 AD when I had: the largest empire, a comfortable tech lead, and korea warring with nappy and genghis warring with gandhi. I originally wanted to go domination, but with the situation I was in and difficult terrain to stage war, I decided that I would win the space race (like I said a single tile connected the N and the S and korea was in control of that area meaning my empire would be separated if I moved on nappy--I was friendly with korea and furious with nappy).

So, does it have to be Cyrus? No, I suppose not, but any charismatic civ that is able to get the pyramids early on means major . If you throw in a powerful early, mobile UU, it's just overkill imo . This was the first game on these settings I've had since coming back to civ4 after some time off where I felt like "wow, that was easy".

Ok, instead of starting two more threads, I'll tack on two questions that I have:

1) Re: capitulated vassals...I got hatty to capitulate in a game awhile back and she had a tech I wanted and it was redded out? What is the point of capitulating someone if you can't access their stuff? I was pretty disappointed. I vassalized her on the express grounds that I would get her tech that she wouldn't let me sue for. I was under the impression that the vassal was pretty much open to the leader demanding whatever...I also asked her to sever trade relations with Bismarck who I was moving in on next and got more negative modifiers with her for making an unreasonable demand...She's not really in a position to say anything I'm doing is unreasonable, is she?

2) Re: biology...I always thought biology let you plop down farms on tundra that wasn't near a water source, but in my most recent game, after getting biology, I discovered this isn't the case? Am I going crazy? I really thought that biology gave you the ability to farm less hospitable land not just +1f for farms?

Thks!

 

[eric_]

I have the same concerns about the vassal situation. Given that it's pretty much impossible to dispense of a capitulated vassal, the likelihood of going to war for refusing to submit to the master's wishes should be much higher, imo.

As for biology, I believe it gives you the 1F bonus and essentially obsoletes the need for irrigation.

 

[Sparta]

Agreed with the Vassals - it's ridiculous that you can't be more demanding of a civ that was just on the verge of being annihilated by your armies anyway. I think by the game mechanics, you'd have to get the relations back up to semi-decent (so they'd consider tech trades again), which isn't even worth all the effort (IMHO) after relations have almost by definition (for Capitulation) been tanked so hard by a huge war. I don't use vassals anymore, basically - they're nearly worthless at best and an annoying and potentially dangerous hindrance at worst.

As to the irrigation thing, I believe that Tundra can only be irrigated if adjacent to a river (or fresh water lake?). "Regular" Tundra can never be improved AFAIK outside of a potential lumbermill on wooded Tundra. It's almost as useless as desert.

Bio gives you the ability to irrigate sans fresh water, but I don't think it trumps the no-irrigation-in-desert-or-non-fresh-water-tundra rulesets.

Isn't Cyrus a blast to play? Producing four-promo units right off the line is awesome. Nicely done in the game!

 

[RIcs]

No, Tundra without fresh water, cant be built anything on it whatsoever.

 

[cabert]

about GG and representation, it doesn't make such a big difference.
how many generals did you get?
5? 6 at most?
sure 6*3 = 18 free beakers + loads of free XP to get better troops, but it isn't game breaking AFAIK.

question 1 : it's quite easy to get your vassals in good relation. You have the defensive pact bonus, open borders with them and go to war with a few neighbours for "mutual struggle" points.
I have a hard time doing anything useful with my vassals after the patch. They nerfed the extortion possibilities

question 2 : in no civ version can you farm tundra that is not on a river. Not without biology and no with it. Those tiles are semiuseless.

 

[futurehermit]

Thks everybody.

@ cabert, it's not the GGs that i felt were game-breaking. i'm not a fan of the imperialistic trait, i don't think it's that good. the 3 beakers were just a bonus and an incentive to settle them as opposed to use them otherwise. the 4-promo units out of the gates were really awesome though...what i felt was game-breaking with representation was its synergy with the charismatic trait...and don't forget with charismatic your units have cheaper promotions, making settled ggs even more attractive...

p.s., that really sucks about not being able to farm tundra. i really feel like you should be able to, post-biology!!!

 

[cabert]

i would like to use peaks as commerce generators when you are under emancipation... you know, fortunate climbers ...

 

[Andrei_V]

2) Re: biology...I always thought biology let you plop down farms on tundra that wasn't near a water source, but in my most recent game, after getting biology, I discovered this isn't the case? Am I going crazy? I really thought that biology gave you the ability to farm less hospitable land not just +1f for farms?

Biology gives you only 1 food per farm. You still need irrigation for another one. I think you can farm tundra after Biology provided that you chain irrigate first, but I'm not completely sure about this.

 

[eric_]

With biology, you can farm any flat-land, non-desert tile even if it is not a fresh-water tile or chain irrigated.

With tundra, you cannot farm any tile that is not a freshwater tile. So if your tundra is next to a farmed tile, but it is not a freshwater tile, you can't farm it, even if you have biology (I just try to imagine how hard it would be irrigate in sub-freezing temperatures, however; maybe this should be possible with plastics or composites (insulation) or electricity (heating methods) AND biology).

At least, that's my understanding.

 

[Drake007]

so you built the pyramids and THEN made an immortal "rush"? what is that chieftain?

 

[carl corey]

The game was on Monarch, he said it at the beginning of his post.

 

[futurehermit]

so you built the pyramids and THEN made an immortal "rush"? what is that chieftain?

I use the word "rush" losely because of course I didn't go flat-out, nothing-but immortal building. Suffice it to say that besides my initial two settlers (cheapened by imperialistic) and pyramids (cheapened by stone and chopping) I focused exclusively on getting immortals out asap to attack ("rush") tokugawa.

And, no it wasn't chieftan, it was monarch with the improved ai mod as I said in my first post

P.S., Tried some starts today on Emperor with improved ai mod...that's some tough stuff! I definitely see the need to be aggressive asap . I have a lot of respect for anyone who can play peacefully emperor+

 

[Drake007]

P.S., Tried some starts today on Emperor with improved ai mod...that's some tough stuff! I definitely see the need to be aggressive asap

hammers wise the pyramids in warlords = ~20 immortals... enough to kick some emperor ass

 

[Meatbuster]

In his case, he only built the pyramids for ~10 immortals worth (had stone). Maybe slowed down his rush, but he's able to get a tech lead.

 

[futurehermit]

^^^yeah, exactly, not to mention the one thing i keep harping about in this thread that charismatic + early representation = major = big, rockin' cities early on!

 

[crashnation]

I started my first 'warloads' game yesterday, with Korean Civ. monarch/normal/continent.

Copper was in capital, with flood plains, and also pig. And with second city, two gold, 4 elepant. and river tiles. My third city had horse, iron. and something else.

With early cottage & gold , i became tech leader very easily. so I made Great Academy without marble easily. After I got 2 sword, 1 elepant, 2 hwacha. I looked around, and I found that my neighbor Gandhi made Pyramid at bombay, right next my city. Thanks alot. I got it. without losing any army.
indian archer is so weak..

game become easier... blah blah blah. I became top scorer at every category, after I finished indian......

..

 

[Meridius]

On vassals - I only got the warlords expansion about 2 weeks ago and was eager to try out the Vassals concept. All I can say now is "DANGER!".
One example recently- In an Emperor game (pre-patch), I was on a continent with Gandhi, Napolean, Toku, Genghis and Wang Ton (Brennus was off on another continent somewhere). Anyway, after the dust settled from numerous wars, Napolean had vassalised Toku and Genghis and I vassalised Gandhi. Napolean was pleased with me and the next step seemed a joint effort on Wang Ton (who was out-teching us having kept out of the wars).
Next thing I know, Toku Declares war on me and in the same turn tries to break from being a vassal of Napolean. Which means I *automatically* declare war on Napolean and Genghis. After the dust settles from that everything is back the way it was but with Wang Ton way out in front techwise and 2 of my cities pillaged to hell and a big negatative diplo modifier for "declaring war" with Napolean!
I thought Vassals couldn't declare war on their own anyway? Is this some quirk of the game that the vassal declared in the same turn as breaking vassalage? Maybe Napolean made his vassal declare on me or something...
Either way, it sucked!

M

 

[futurehermit]

I started my first 'warloads' game yesterday, with Korean Civ. monarch/normal/continent.

Copper was in capital, with flood plains, and also pig. And with second city, two gold, 4 elepant. and river tiles. My third city had horse, iron. and something else.

With early cottage & gold , i became tech leader very easily. so I made Great Academy without marble easily. After I got 2 sword, 1 elepant, 2 hwacha. I looked around, and I found that my neighbor Gandhi made Pyramid at bombay, right next my city. Thanks alot. I got it. without losing any army.
indian archer is so weak..

game become easier... blah blah blah. I became top scorer at every category, after I finished indian......

..

Sounds like a gg. Nice resources and having floodplains in capital is always nice, not to mention gold pits kicking around. However, I think it is possible to do a lot more dmg earlier with immortals rather than waiting for construction. Both are viable and very powerful, no question though.

 

[futurehermit]

On vassals - I only got the warlords expansion about 2 weeks ago and was eager to try out the Vassals concept. All I can say now is "DANGER!".
One example recently- In an Emperor game (pre-patch), I was on a continent with Gandhi, Napolean, Toku, Genghis and Wang Ton (Brennus was off on another continent somewhere). Anyway, after the dust settled from numerous wars, Napolean had vassalised Toku and Genghis and I vassalised Gandhi. Napolean was pleased with me and the next step seemed a joint effort on Wang Ton (who was out-teching us having kept out of the wars).
Next thing I know, Toku Declares war on me and in the same turn tries to break from being a vassal of Napolean. Which means I *automatically* declare war on Napolean and Genghis. After the dust settles from that everything is back the way it was but with Wang Ton way out in front techwise and 2 of my cities pillaged to hell and a big negatative diplo modifier for "declaring war" with Napolean!
I thought Vassals couldn't declare war on their own anyway? Is this some quirk of the game that the vassal declared in the same turn as breaking vassalage? Maybe Napolean made his vassal declare on me or something...
Either way, it sucked!

M

The patch makes things better, but I still think vassals need some work. Particularly, capitulated vassals should concede to your wishes and shouldn't have anything "redded out". You should be able to demand ANYTHING from them and if they refuse, WAR.

 

[johnny_rico]

future hermit,

That is a good game. I've never played with Cyrus before, vanilla or new. Anyway, there is a nice synergy with representation and charismatic trait, for certain. Was it even necessary to build monuments gaining an additional +1 happiness. When I play a charismatic leader, I usually look to build stonehenge for the instant +1 happy and culture for new cities. With this start, I'm not certain you needed monuments, which is why I ask.

How about the additional boon of faster GG's combined with representation. Obviously, as the game wears on, the benefit is less. But early on, you're fueling your tech development with war (maybe not fueling, but aiding). There's so many layers of goodness here, it's a basket weaving class unto its own.