Damned Units???

[chuckiferd]

There are certain units (such as chariotes, horsemen, and elite units to name a few) that seem to be extrodanarilly unlucky. At first I thought it was coincidence that my statistically supperiour horsemen and chaireotteers were slaughtered by barbarian and enemy warriors while all other ancient infantry types were very very supperior over barbarians, and alright against enemy nations. I also thought it was coincidence that my spearsmen hold off hordes of enemies as lower experiance level but imediatly upon reaching the rank of elite suddenly losing. Other elite troops seemed to get their butts whooped all the time also. My question is, is this all simply unlucky situations or is there some hiden factor that reduces the effectiveness of troops when certain conditions are met?

 

[TheOverseer714]

Add the Hittite Three Man Chariot to the "damned unit" list. I have never had any luck with any chariot type unit. And yes, elites seem remarkably fragile, use them against red-lined or 1 defense units only, if possible.

 

[chuckiferd]

well that is two people, I think that there is serriously detriments to building certain units or letting them reach elite level that is programmed into the game

I think that we should serriously created a list called "Damned Units" and make it a sticky, if only for the laughs

 

[Nergal]

Yes its a familiar pattern ... conscript .. beats 3 million units and promotes, regular, beats 6 million units and promotes. Elite pops his head up to see whats happening and gets it lopped off by some kid with a sling ..... David and Goliath syndrome. Chariots are useless though, their only value is comedy as they fall apart in an amusing manner.

 

[chuckiferd]

Yes, but the effect on horsemen and sometimes even knights is very very suprising. Even chariots are statistically better than most early units. Horsemen should do very well while they don't fare much better than the chariots. Knights normally fair well against defending troops as long as you keep those pikes away. But if you try to fight a unit in a open tile he will get killed pretty fast, I serriously lost a full healthed knight to a badly wounded defending archer when I fought on a road tile.

 

[Nergal]

It depends ... I've had great games with knights, and bad ones. I'm not a huge fan of horsemen, except as an upgrade path. for the cost archers are better value, just slower. And you can say the same about archers with respect to chariots as well.

 

[chuckiferd]

I truely am not talking about their strategic worth I am talking about the phenomenon that occurs that makes mounted and elite unites very very weak in realitivity to the mathmatical strength they should have

 

[Walliard]

I truely am not talking about their strategic worth I am talking about the phenomenon that occurs that makes mounted and elite unites very very weak in realitivity to the mathmatical strength they should have

That's called "chance".

 

[chuckiferd]

That's called "chance".

Well, I and pretty much everyone else who has posted feels that some units are beaten so much that it must be out of the hands of luck and chance. If I were the only one experiancing it, it would more likely be chance however since many others have testified I guess there must be some hidden formula that disfavours certain units

 

[MAS]

I truely am not talking about their strategic worth I am talking about the phenomenon that occurs that makes mounted and elite unites very very weak in realitivity to the mathmatical strength they should have

That's called "chance".

Actually, there exist an other word for it that is more fitting.

But I'm not going to use it because I don't want to be called a fashion victim.



EDIT, I don't want to sound paranoid, but I wonder if there are sock puppet at work on this forum.

 

[Nergal]

I think the word(s) is cognitive bias, and you are a fashion victim MAS ....

If you test it and run a million battle sims with different troops it does work out. The combat rules are there and they operate such that the combat calculator does give a real guide to the chances. Over a pile of tests it will work fine. In practice when you are trying to demolish AI troops it doesnt, for some troops more than others. I think I know the reason that cognitive bias is such a factor in Civ.

The majority of human players just attack. Build a big stack, or even just a few troops, see the enemy and hit it. There might be an element of strategic planning, in a lot of cases but most players dont calculate the odds of every combat before carrying it out. The AI does. Its moves are based on knowing the whereabouts and strengths of every piece on the board, and what the odds are to 2 decimal places. So every move is planned to have as much success as possible. Its why the bikini babe gambit works. The AI sees a big stack with low probability of success and the bikini babe with a high probability of success. It takes the high probability option every time. A human player would ignore the bikini babe and go for the stack, or at least try to nullify it by moving onto a mountain and getting it to attack. The AI is a poor strategic player, but when it comes to taking out individual, vulnerable units, its good.

Its probably not that particular units are just unlucky, its more likely that its the way we use them.

 

[chuckiferd]

I am sorry I don't think I fully understand

 

[chuckiferd]

oh ok I kind of get it however I am a huge fan of mountains and terrain and I usually move troops sepretly on different titles. Plus the troop type I think is the most unlucky is elite spears/pike men deffending a city, I will have these amazing troops that hold off wave after wave of attack but once he gets that final upgrade to elite he crumbles against the next enemy he fights against

 

[Nergal]

The AI looks at the odds, its just numbers to the AI. So every attack is based on its probability of success. And it knows where all the units are. So every turn it looks at its units, it looks at your units. It calculates, to the nth degree, the movement points of its units. It then has a whole host of options. It knows which of its units can attack with the highest probability of success, and in some cases retreat to safety. And those are the options it will take. It doesnt take risks. sometimes the RNG goes against it and it does lose, but on average its technique will work effectively.
As human players we dont calculate the odds every time. Experienced players have a pretty fair idea of whether an attack is being launched from an advantageous position or not. BUt I doubt even the most picky players dont work out the odds of every attack to the extent the AI does. The game just wouldnt be fun. So a lot of the time we attack when the odds are against us. Its historical fact, the Charge of the Light Brigade, the massacres of the First World War. Horsemen and knights and chariots are used for their movement abilities, and we attack at the limit of their movement. So they often end up, weakened and in bad terrain. Which means they are easy targets from the AI point of view. Thus we lose more units in that fashion. So from a cognitive bias point of view it appears they are damned units.

 

[Nergal]

I think in part its the law of averages. Theres a survive and promote rule. I cant remember the details but if a unit survives 2 successive attacks it promotes. So a regular needs to survive 2 to get to veteran, and another 2 to get to elite. Normally its in a weakened state. The combat calc is based on hit points more than just strength. So an elite is stronger than a normal unit but if its weakened its weak. And if its a recently promoted unit its already survived 2 or more attacks. In terms of effectiveness its taken out 2 enemy already, possibly 4. Its the same if you attack an AI city. you need 5 to 1 in order to guarantee success.

 

[chuckiferd]

Are you getting this from the combat generator, I would very much like to look at all the formualas that are involved in combat between units. The formula given in the manual is obviously watered down if not entirely false.

 

[darski]

The AI looks at the odds, its just numbers to the AI. So every attack is based on its probability of success. And it knows where all the units are. So every turn it looks at its units, it looks at your units. It calculates, to the nth degree, the movement points of its units. It then has a whole host of options. It knows which of its units can attack with the highest probability of success, and in some cases retreat to safety. And those are the options it will take.

I agree with this and I then pose the question... has anyone else noticed that Egypt as an AI does not build a lot of war chariots? Hmmmnn, I wonder why that is?

I just took out a fresh new (reg) war chariot with a 1-hp vet archer, non-fortified, standing alone in a field.

I think Cleo was desperate for a Golden Age and that is the only reason she built one.

 

[Aabraxan]

oh ok I kind of get it however I am a huge fan of mountains and terrain and I usually move troops sepretly on different titles. Plus the troop type I think is the most unlucky is elite spears/pike men deffending a city, I will have these amazing troops that hold off wave after wave of attack but once he gets that final upgrade to elite he crumbles against the next enemy he fights against

Are you spreading your units out and moving them? Or are you talking about having stacks of different unit types, like moving all of your horses in one pile and all of your swords and cats in another? If you're talking about spreading them out, try putting them in a stack. If the AI attacks the stack, you get the advantages of any defensive bombardments, not to mention the fact that the best defender defends first. IOW, if you attack with a swordsman and he promotes but also redlines, when the counter-attack comes, you'll get to defend with that 4/4 vet pike in the pile first.

 

[Nergal]

On the downloads database under Utility programs, there is a Combat Calculator, it uses the same rules as the game, as far as I know. download it and play, its interesting.
I did the same in one game, built a few when I had cavalry and threw them against any red lined troops until I got a GA.

 

[chuckiferd]

^^^^
^^^^

No actually I move each individual unit sepratly and surround a city from as many possibal angles to cut off trade via road. I guess I will have to start stacking now.

^^^^
But that is a battle simulator and not a real map, I think I will create a testing map with hundreds of small Islands and different troop combinations, maybe I can get the formula down